L.A. Marzulli's Blog

Politics, Prophecy & the Supernatural

Colorado Update: Day Four!

Posted by lamarzulli on August 29, 2011

UPDATE! Before some of you get in a huffie-puffie, at me for today’s post, may I suggest that you do a little research on what I believe is the  most enigmatic, artifact that is on planet earth. Of course I am speaking about the Shroud of Turin. Yesterday, my friend and co-producer of the WATCHERS DVD series, Richard Shaw and myself climbed the mountains of Colorado – to the 10,000 foot level – in our rented Jeep and visited Barrie Shwortz, the photographer that was part of the STURP team – Shroud of Turin Research Project – in 1978. The team had access to the Shroud for 5 days, and Barrie stayed awake at his post for 102 out of the 120 hours!  He took thousands of photographs of the Shroud and is now recognized as one of the worlds leading experts.  During our interview, he mentioned that he thought that the team would arrive in Turin, examine the Shroud, find that the image was painted on the cloth and go home. However, much to his amazement this was not the case!  Barrie states emphatically that the Shroud is not a painting, or a picture and was not put on the cloth by the hand of man. In short, no one really knows how the image got there.  What is even more amazing as that the image that we see here is from a photographic NEGATIVE! This startling fact wasn’t discovered until the modern era.  In other words the Shroud did not begin to reveal its secrets until the Secunda Pia photographed it and almost dropped the glass developing plate when he saw the face that you see in the picture above.

In my opinion the Shroud is forensic evidence of a crucified man.  It shows in graphic detail the 120 scourge marks that were inflicted on the body by the Romans.  Look at the picture above and you will see the blood marks around the forehead and hair-line.  Those are from the helmet of thorns that were pounded into the head of the man on the Shroud.  Then there are the marks on the back of the wrists that show that the Romans drove the nails through the palm of the hands, but at an angle so they would come out in between the bones at the base of the wrists, on the  back of the hand.  There are the wounds from the spear on the side, where you can see the water like substance mixed with the blood.

In closing today’s post.  Watchers 3, is entitled, The Fingerprints of the Supernatural.  What can be more supernatural than the Shroud of Turin as no one knows how the image was put on the cloth?  It just amazes me that we have detailed forensic evidence, that shows a crucified man, in post-mortem, with the exact wounds on his body that we read about in the gospel accounts.  I wept when I first saw the face, in 1980, as I believe it is really him.  I don’t worship the image, and it doesn’t add to my salvation.  It does, however, leave me speechless as I have a tangible link to events that happened almost 2000 years ago, a cosmic picture, if you will of the event that Christians call the resurrection, made, I believe by God himself, as the lifeless body dematerialized in millions of points of light.  Is the man on the Shroud Jesus?  That’s up to you to decide for yourself.  As for me, the Shroud of Turin is God’s Calling Card.

We leave for Los Angeles late in the afternoon.  The trip was fruitful and as usual God brought good things out of adversity. I would like to thank all of you who supported Richard and me in getting to Colorado to conduct the interviews with Stan Deyo and Barrie Shwortz.  Can’t wait to get home to the Wifey! Blessings to all…. L.A.

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164 Responses to “Colorado Update: Day Four!”

  1. This artifact is the most amazing thing to me. When Jesus was transfigured with a face like the sun with the purest fiery glow of the Holy Spirit, one can only imagine what that type of emanating energy would do to a tightly wrapped cloth around a body. THERE IS NO GOD LIKE OUR GOD!!

  2. The Cypress Tree said

    Good morning, LA, Brothers and sisters,

    This topic has taken on new life thanks to you. Before I even finished reading your post, I felt weepy. And then I read your reaction is the same. We here are all so connected to our brave, loving Jesus. The Holy Spirit tugs. How our Sweet Jesus suffered for us… This is far more than an artifact… indeed a calling card.

    The Cypress Tree

  3. James said

    LA,

    What do you mean by “lifeless body dematerialized in millions of points of light”?

    • lamarzulli said

      This is a theory put forth by Dame Isabel Pickzek about what happened at the moment of resurrection. You can google her name and see for yourself. She calls the event a reverse big bang! We are trying to get her for Watchers 3….!

    • binny said

      Frank Tipler, physics prof at Tulane, has a great book called “The Physics of Christianity.” He goes into detail in one chapter on the Shroud and how quantum physics could explain it. If you can’t get Dame you might want to consider Frank as he’s in New Orleans. (I’m not sure why Dame gets credit for this as Frank explained the physics in 2007. Maybe even earlier since he has another book called “The Physics of Immortality.”) Seems like a brilliant person. Yes, he does wear his Catholicism on his sleeve but he maintains that he is first and foremost a scientist. He also says the mathematics of quantum physics demands (it’s not an option) that parallel universes is the only interpretation. It’s either that, he says, or else quantum physics is wrong and they need to look for another theory.

    • The Cypress Tree said

      Hello James, I think LA may still be in transit. This is a fair question.

      I will attempt bridge LA’s response a little. God’s incredible design at a quantum level shows that all molecules have space between them and vibrate at a different frequency yet are drawn together by some gravitational force. These molecules can have this gravity and vibrational frequency changed enabling ‘dematerialization’ . This my laywomen’s understanding of a rather new quantum physics field. The light has a very high frequency I suspect and God’s light, I would guess as well, is an ethereal, exceptional frequency, of which only God knows. I know this sounds all weird–even new age! But there is some physical science to the new quantum physics which pervade our planet now, some for good, some for evil.

      There has been much written by scientists puzzled by this unique imprint in the cloth, as though something more than bodily fluids produced it. Indeed.

      I suspect LA will have an another take. Thought I would put in my two cents.

      The Cypress Tree

    • lamarzulli said

      Cypress Tree – This is where Dame Pickzek goes. She is a phycicist and a muralist, so she brings a unique perspective to the SHROUD. If we are intellectually honest no one knows how Jesus’ body was raised from the dead. I believe that the image was caused by the resurrection event, but I have no way to prove that scientifically, thus it is a belief based on conjecture and my world view that there is a supernatural that is greater than this reality!

    • The Cypress Tree said

      YES indeed LA, there is much that eludes us until we join Him. Beyond any of our understanding. But we seek nevertheless. This is holy. :-) Let’s face it, we Christians cannot get enough of Jesus, cannot get close enough to Him…the shroud satiates that desire a little.

      The Cypress Tree

    • binny said

      For what it’s worth, quantum physics isn’t new at all. It’s been fully developed for 100 years. It’s just that we can’t wrap our brain around it. Yet it’s used for thousands of electrical devices we use every day…computers, transitors, all kinds of lasers. It works…yet we don’t quite know how.

  4. Christine C. said

    Thank you, L.A. for saying what I’ve believed for decades, ever since I read about the STURP report, in a book about the Shroud back in the early 1980′s–and, if it’s truly the Lord’s burial shroud, then it’s definitely God’s “calling card”, as you said–plus, that also means that it belongs to all who love Him, and is not the ‘relic’ of one Christian ‘denomination’ alone–I don’t think it should be rejected until all evidence is brought to light–if it’s shown to be a fake, then we need to reject it, definitely–but, not due to it now being in possession of the Catholic Church.

  5. Deb said

    It is always a good day when your entry is about the Shroud! Thanks! : )

  6. The Cypress Tree said

    Scientists attempt to computerize the shroud and show us Jesus’ face:

    Take it in stride but…

    The Cypress Tree

    • The Cypress Tree said

      A more Christian video on the Lord’s face. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b69bPW33DMc&feature=related

      Very moving if we are indeed witnessing our Lord’s face. Question is: Is this prior or post transformation if He was taken by His Father supernaturally, transforming the cloth? If the shroud was left by the Lord as a fingerprint as LA mentioned, He intends for us to see His face. It is written. We still need discernment, study and the guidance of the Holy Ghost.

      If it is real, the enemy will do all he can to deter us, messing with dating. Apparently, the piece that was analyzed by one faction changing the dating to 300 years later was actually a piece added in repair—so constructive the evil one is!

      I cannot help think that it is real. I weep at its site.

      The Cypress Tree

    • The Cypress Tree said

      Sorry folks, ABC blocked this embedding. So view my link at 3:43. You will see the face of the Turin in 3D.

      The Cypress Tree

    • Kimberly said

      When I saw that show… I was like this: 8-O the whole time! :*-) I personally love the whole Shroud thing. It’s like.. He left a Polaroid picture of Himself for us!!!! :-)

  7. Lisa said

    The picture is just amazing! And how could anyone back then, even when it was found produce something like this, even down to the exact details of the infliction of the wounds. It is too precise to be a fake in my opinion. Indeed, it reveals the supernatural and a hint at the power of our God. It is not something to be worshipped, no, but to add to our faith the recognition of all He did for us and the scriptures which is the supreme calling card are what we base and build our faith on. These types of things are additional proofs in my opinion of the Lord. Many people won’t look to the word first but may start to question after seeing this and that may lead them to the word, which will lead them to faith. Amen!

  8. ashadele said

    I saw a show on the history channel or discovery about the shroud and they recreated the face from it. I was blown away, because the image looked almost identical to the Jesus image in the book: Heaven is for Real. And very much the same as a dream of Jesus I had in 2009! I can’t wait to actually see Him face to face! It’s so exciting that we are moving closer and closer to that DAY!! The link below is to the picture of Jesus in case you’re interested in checking it out.

    http://shroudofturin.wordpress.com/2011/02/23/akianes-jesus-heaven-is-for-real-and-the-man-in-the-turin-shroud/

  9. ktaylor50 said

    I saw a replica of the shroud once and It was obvious the nail prints and sword piercing. Since science tries to cover up or explain away anything Christian is it no wonder they “fudge” the facts on the shroud? and the appearance of him is more in line to what the Bible says, than artist’s renditions of a blond , blue eyed, handsome Christ… “He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to Him, nothing in His appearance that we should desire Him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. ” (Isaiah 53:2-3)

    • The Cypress Tree said

      Good point KT, on the manufacturing of an aryan type Christ. Lucifer is intelligent and spends every moment deluding us. I will check that verse in Isaiah–excellent find!

      The Cypress Tree

  10. John said

    All of the books in the kids nursery at my old church showed a Jesus that looked more like Barry Gibb, you know white and blonde hair. (when he was younger of course). The shroud certainly gives a different interpretation than the mainstream church pushes.Needless to say we no longer go to that church. Great article LA, now bring on Watchers 3.

    • mark said

      HAHAHAHA!!! I love those old paintings. No realization of the fact that Jesus looks more like an arab or olive skinned. (I like that connection to the olive branch.)
      Wow just had a thought. When the Holy Spirit caused Mary(mankind) to be pregnant with Jesus(Prince of Peace) that was the second time maybe fulfillment of the Spirit giving Noah(mankind)
      that olive branch(symbol of peace)Jesus?

      I wonder how shocked some will be to see Him as He is!!!

    • John said

      I think we all will be shocked and in total awe. Come quickly Lord Jesus!

    • Bon said

      Barry Gibb! TOO funny!

  11. Logan said

    What has always bothered me about the Shroud is not only the long hair but that the facial features look more like an artists interpretation of what God looks like than it actually does a real human face. But when all is said and done the Shroud is an interesting but meaningless artifact because faith should come from the heart because of the Word of God or it’s not faith.

    • lamarzulli said

      Logan – I would disagree that the Shroud would be meaning less, as it may be forensic evidence of the Resurrection!

    • mark said

      L.a. isn’t there a scripture that says there shall be no graven image of Jesus? I once heard a story of a statue of Jesus
      comissioned by who was the woman at the well. It existed for a time but was ground to dust by an enemy army.

    • I would not exactly call the Shroud an “image” of Jesus. The Shroud itself only has a VERY faint image of some sort of person, and for thousands of years, those who knew of the Shroud had no idea just how much was woven into it. It was only by an accident, through a negative, that the remarkable image of the person wrapped in the Shroud appeared.

      We’ve been able to uncover many “signatures” of the Holy Spirit in the text of the Bible with modern computers. I would liken the Shroud to that, as it is not so much an “image” as it is a signature. It’s impossible to determine if it really is our Lord’s face, but we DO know now that it is the face of someone from around the same time who was BOTH scourged and crucified. Two things that are VERY RARELY done to anyone during that time.

    • The Lord was from nazareth and many Nazareene’s wore long hair.

    • Maureen said

      Where does it say that in the Bible?

      Blessings

    • John Michael said

      Maureen,

      Read Numbers 6:2-5 regarding a Nazirite not cutting his hair. An example, Samson was a Nazirite and something else, Nazirites did not drink wine.

      Jesus was a Nazarene and not a Nazirite and more than likely did not wear His hair long. Think about this for a moment, if Jesus had long hair then Judas would have told the soldiers to grab the guy with the long hair.

      Ezekiel 44:20 God commanded the Levites not to shave their heads or to grow their hair long. It was customary for the Jewish priests to cut their hair once a month. This style of hair cut became known as the Cesar or Julian.

    • Hard to believe only a few of you know some of these basic facts….

    • Rose from Kentucky said

      Just because someone was from Nazareth didn’t make them a Nazarite. That would be like saying everyone from Annapolis is a naval cadet. No, Nazarites like Samsom took vows – often consecrated from birth – to never cut their hair, consume any product from the vine (grapes – wine, grape juice, or grapes themselves), and to never touch any dead thing.

      Jesus drank wine, touched the dead (to bring them back to life), and probably cut his hair.

    • Maureen said

      Faithfulelect,

      The point of my question was to get you to search the Scriptures and see that there is a difference between a Nazarene and a Nazirite.

      The Lord Jesus Christ was from Nazareth and therefore a Nazarene, but from Scripture it is obvious He had not taken a Nazarite vow.

      Blessings

  12. The Cypress Tree said

    History of the shroud according to History Channel documentary.

    Almost very pagan’s mitts are on this!

    The Cypress Tree

  13. richard said

    There are some fascinating details of the shroud of tourin however the Romans butchered thousands if not hundreds of thousands by crucifixtion. Statistically the probability of this cloth being that of Christ’s is less than 1%.

    However lets assume that it is the burrial cloth of Jesus. “So What!” Will this burial cloth bring muslims to christ or atheists or those sitting on the fence? I dont think so.

    Scripture is clear “we are not to worship any forms of idols” including idols of christ. Whether its wooded crosses, pictures of mary or the bones of past religious leaders. Its wrong.

    The bible is the living word and the only proof of christ that we need. The catholic faith has created so many different idols its become the golden calf of the christian faith. Those catholic leaders will be judged by God for leading their flocks astray.

    “Watch yourself that you make no covenant with the inhabitants of the land into which you are going, lest it become a snare in your midst. But rather, you are to tear down their altars and smash their sacred pillars and cut down their Asherim—for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God” (Exodus 34:12-14).

    I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another,
    Nor My praise to graven images (Isaiah 42:8).

    Do you think for a moment that God wants us worshipping past popes, statues of mary or the crucifix? The Shroud of Tourin fits in with this. I think not.

    I would throw the Shroud of the Tourin in the interesting column but that is it. I might be scouring the dead sea scrolls for new revelations concerning the christian faith but the Shroud of the Tourin is nothing more than a sight seeing anomoly and hardly worth any scientific research beyond what has already been discovered.

    I hippocrite in saying this but we all know we are living in the last days our focus should be on warning the

    • The Cypress Tree said

      Nobody in praising anything here. Just studying as we are commanded. Jesus was seen by thousands in his 33 years of life. Seeking his face is absolutely normal. We love Him without His face!

      The Cypress Tree

    • richard said

      Your comment “Nobody is praising anything here”

      Maybe not here but in general are you saying that when people see this image in museums they don’t stare at it and pray.

      People are claiming this is christ? I would put this Shroud in with Fatima. There are too many vague generalities that dont promote it realness of authenticity.

      By suggesting that the shroud of tourin may be christ yes you are praising this artifact.

      Definiton of an Idol

      i·dol Noun/ˈīdl/1. An image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.

      The Shroud is being used as and idol of worship by some when on display in museums. When people see this image which may or may not be christ it causes people to pray. Which I am not saying is bad.

      However I know that for a fact that people pray the bones of peter and john in those catholic churches. People worship the letters of Fatima. People worship statues of Mary.

      This shroud should not even be considered as the possible burial cloth of Jesus. And now people are praying in front of it.

      As Jesus said why do you look for living among the dead

    • James said

      There are however, very few victims of Roman-style crucifixion who irradiated their burial shrouds to the point of burning images into them.

    • Lisa said

      HELLO!!!!!!!!!!! Amen.

    • richard said

      James how do you know this? The Romans were barbarians. The only consistency they had was the brutality of their victims. Whose to say they didnt burn images into the shrouds of their victims for identification purposes.

      This shroud is just too set up! Much like the stone jewish box caskets that held the bones of the jewish dead that have surfaced with some of the disciples names on them. Just too coincidental. In fact many have been proven to be fake. Jewish atinquity dealers make large sums of money even for fakes.

  14. richard said

    to add to my other statement above that was cut off. Time is short we are to be warning others of the coming great deception and the great commission.

    I also hate to say it but Jesus does not look like a European. This man looks like he is taller than 6′ft and he has long skinny nose. Those arent jewish characteristics.

    Someone mentioned the history channel above and they did a computer drawing of what Jesus might have looked like based upon Jewish skulls found during that era. I can tell you the computer animation drawing was nothing like that of the shroud.

    Look at the jewish leaders of today does Netanyahu look like that? What about Barak? or anyone in the Knesset? No

    Thats just my opinion.

    • The Cypress Tree said

      Don’t forget our Heavenly Father made him. This is not of this world. Any face is possible even if placed in the promised land.

      The Cypress Tree

  15. Matt said

    Artifacts and evidence do not negate faith, they promote it. Evidence is necessary for true faith to flourish. Jesus said “if any man will do his will he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself (St.John 7:17).” So does that mean Jesus is asking to prove his word with evidence? Yes. You live by faith every day.. Living by faith enables you TO live. If you didn’t believe (or have faith) that you could move or act or pray and get answers and live your life you wouldn’t live your life, or pray. Faith is not the absence of evidence it is the hope of thing that are true that are not exactly know to you at the moment. Do You KNOW God will answer your prayer? Probably not, but hopefully you have gotten evidence in your life that HE Does. And those “artifacts” or evidences give you the hope to continue exercising your FAITH to continue praying. Otherwise, why keep praying..You’d get the same result praying to a plant or whatever you choose to blindly believe or not believe in. Only the truth of things unseen the we place faith in will leave “clues” or evidence that they are indeed true and will lead us to greater and greater truths until we Know the to be true not just believe them. This gives you the power to worship in Spirit and Truth. For The Spirit Speaks and guides you to the evidence you need to confirm your faith (seek and ye shall find) and truth is confirmed with the evidence given as you seek for it(knock and it shall be open unto you).
    The shroud can confirm your faith in the literal resurrection of Jesus. This is great evidences to have if you have faith that you too will be resurrected or “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:22). It would support that it is indeed true. Maybe we all need a little confirmation of faith once in a while to get us through the trials of life?

    • richard said

      This ISN’T an artifact. Just because I have a football in my garage that says NFL on it doesnt mean that it was the game ball from last superbowls winning team.

      Do I agree with you statment that these artifacts bring hope. Yes they do but more often than not they are treated as idols and prayed to which is wrong.

      Like I said there is no empirical evidence that suggest the man on the cloth is even jewish. In fact in my opinion he is far from it. There is no empirical evidence to suggest that this cloth was taken from christs tomb. Just like there is no empirical evidence to suggest that different catholic churches have the bones of several of the disciples. Four different catholic churches claim to have the bones of Peter. Countless claim to have the bones of John. These bones aren’t used to bolster faith they are Idols that are being prayed to.

      When we pray to God we are not to be staring at crucifix, a statue of mary or Shroud of Tourin or an old fallen pope? Why are pope John Paul’s bones being brought out in the open again. Leave the poor man alone. I will tell you because the catholic church has a wierd fatuation of worshipping fallen popes and nuns? Even if he John Paul is a saint in Gods eyes he should never be worshipped?

      Matthew 6:6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

    • Sarah said

      As Christ Himself said, (paraphrase) “A wicked and adulterous generation is this that seeks a sign, and none shall be given but the sign of Jonah.” How is this generation any better than His own. In fact, I think we are much more depraved. He said the only sign they would be given was the sign of Jonah, meaning his literal death, burial and resurrection over the period of three full days and three full nights. We do not need a shroud to confirm our faith. We need to believe that He is who He said He was, and who He proved Himself to be–the son of the Living God and our Messiah.

    • Matt said

      Richard, what have we said about not commenting on each others post? Hmmmmm?

    • richard said

      When I disagree with someone whether its you or anyone else I will comment. Regardless

    • Matt said

      I thought we both came to an agreement a few months back we would not comment on each other’s post? There have been many of your post I would have liked to comment on but refrained from doing so as I was lead to believe we came to an understanding? The last thing you or I need is a repeat of a few months ago. No one needs a fiasco like that on this blog again. For the last few months I have purposely skipped over your post as to not feel tempted to comment, I would appreciated it is you would return the favor regardless how difficult it may seem. Trust me, it’s definitely for the best of this blog. Thanks in advance Richard.

    • richard said

      Matt comment away on my comments you wont hurt my feelings. I enjoy the debate.

    • Matt said

      Thanks Richard, it really wasn’t about hurting your feelings, We just never hit if off Richard and it was about us agreeing on absolutely nothing and things getting ugly and heated on this blog, . I will never be baited into a comment debate with you again as I did the last time. Poor judgment as it were on my part I didn’t appreciate how you handled it as well. Both of us showed poor form which I have apologized publicly and privately to the owner of this blog and let him know it would not happen again. I would like to put this behind me and is something I would rather not revisit , however, I still feel you own me an apology for putting words in my mouth I never said, however, with that said, im over it, and have been for months. You’re just not a stand up guy, Richard, I realized that awhile back and im cool with it. You know what you did wrong guy, that said, I will continue to not make comments on your post, if for some ungodly reason, (for reasons only known to you) you still feel compelled to make your opinions known on my post just understand you are fair game and can expect to have your lunch handed to you just like the last time., hopefully a tad more civil this time. I would rather avoid that, as I rarely spare feelings,even yours Richard. Have a blessed day.

    • richard said

      Your comment: “You’re not a stand up guy” Richard “Well How Christ Like of You Matt Thank you” back to the name calling. Last time you threatened physical violence. I love the Lord and my name is written in the lambs book of life. I am a stand up guy.

      I never put words in your mouth I just read from your posts. The topic we discussed is one of which many disagree and is a heated debate.

      20% of America now believes 9-11 was an inside job and that there was no possible way from an engineering standpoint that building 7 could fall. LA wrote that not me I just agreed with him. I just supported that with facts.

      “Bring me my lunch?” What does that mean. A debate means another person has a differing opinion. When you have one please comment it. Debate makes each of us think outside of our comfort zones. Just because we think one way doesn’t mean its always right Matt.

      Its seems as if you are the one with the anger which is evidence by your comments today not me. Matt I would not say you are not a stand up guy. I know you love the lord. I would also not say “I’m going to hand you your lunch.”

      Again if handing my me my lunch is spuring you to give the other side of the debate please do.

      I would only ask that you refrain from comments such as “You’re not a stand up guy” There is no need for comments like that on this blog for anyone.

    • Jeff D said

      Matt, are you “Abe”? Your words are verbatim to the comments “Abe” made from this site:

      http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-mainmenu-26/europe-mainmenu-35/3234-is-the-shroud-of-turin-authentic

      Just asking for clarification.

      Respectfully in Christ,

      Jeff D

  16. Sarah said

    I certainly do not want to step on anyone’s toes, but there are some things to keep in mind concerning the shroud and whether it truly belongs to our Messiah. The book of Isaiah says in chapter 53, “For he shall grow up before him as a tender sapling, and as a root out of dry ground: he hath no form nor lordliness, and when we see him, there is NO BEAUTY that we should DESIRE him.” I take this in the most literal sense meaning he was not a handsome man, physically. The video on the facial reconstruction presents a face from the shroud that I find to be attractive as well as several women in the video above. Also, the shroud does not present the evidence of His beard being plucked out and his face being marred beyond recognition as it says in Isaiah 52:14: “As many were astonished at thee — his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the children of men”. So whether his glorified body would be shown in the shroud or the the marred image is up for debate, he certainly would not be a good looking man as pictured in the reconstruction.

    Another thing to consider is the manner of Jewish burial. The body would have been cleaned through a process called taharah. There was adequate time before the sun went down leading up to Passover for Joseph (Matt. 27:59) and Nicodemus (John 19:39), who took his body, to clean it properly, apply the burial spices, and wrap it in clean linen before placing him in the tomb. There may have been traces of blood on the burial shroud, but I don’t think it would be to the extent that is shown on this shroud. Also what is the typical shroud for Jewish burial? The Jewish people would have most likely have had the same custom of dressing the dead as they have for the past 1800 years. A clean set of linen clothes would have been put on the body not a sheet.

    I do not wish to discourage anyone in their belief of whether Yeshua was crucified, buried, and resurrected, only whether this is the burial cloth bought by Joseph for Yeshua’s burial. We have to look at Scripture and test everything according to it. We also need to look at the story of Yeshua through Hebraic eyes. He was not a Greek or Roman, He was Jewish in a Jewish culture, and things would have been done according to the Jewish customs of the time.

    I am personally inclined to think that this shroud is not of the Messiah, but that’s only my opinion.

    Blessings to you all as you continue to seek Him,
    Sarah

    • Greg the Electrician said

      I’m thinking that He was the Abraham Lincoln type…

      Kind of Plain for physical features.

    • Sarah said

      Huh, yeah, maybe along those lines; I don’t think Abraham Lincoln was particularly considered “handsome”.

    • Matt said

      Of course, corpses can also “bleed” out of large wounds on the lower part of the body due to gravity of being moved.. Also during transport of a corpse, the emission of blood is possible if pressure occurs in areas containing blood. First consider the bleeding from the wound on the side (the lance thrust wound). The lower back must have lain in a puddle of blood because bloodstains spread right and left six to eight inches beyond the area covered by the image of the body.

    • richard said

      Both chicken and beef are pumped full of water therefore more than usual amounts of drainage occur and water is far less dense than blood allowing for more drainage. Ground beef is also pulverized ground meat so its not a real comparison to wounds on christs body in my opinion. Its also been package within 30 minutes of when it was killed. As Sarah noted above this body was air dried and cleaned and it layed out for hours during the cleaning process. As Sarah also noted a clean set of linens would have been used not the set of linens used to move the body.

    • lamarzulli said

      That’s why the women were returning to the tomb, to give him a proper burial…!

    • lamarzulli said

      That’s why the women were returning to the tomb, to give him a proper burial…!

    • richard said

      I would also point out that Jesus lost large amount of blood when he was stabbed on the cross. After his body was cleaned up why would he continue to bleed after he lost such large amounts of blood? Why would you see blood marks on the turin?

    • Bon said

      You will find blood in the bottom of a pack of cleaned and PROCESSED hamburger or chicken! What in the world would make you think there would be no oozing blood associated with a mangled murder victim placed hurriedly in a tomb directly following his death? The fact that they washed him?!

  17. The Cypress Tree said

    The Shroud is for the doubting Thomas’ . This disciple was critical to represent ‘ye of little faith’ throughout the world. As was Judas of zero faith and greed.

    In like manner, the Father chose 7 churches cleverly in today’s Western Turkey to represent the kaleidoscope of worship and to reprove each. He also chose the disciples very cleverly, each representing the soul and hearts of men and also reproof thereto.

    He loved Thomas and allowed him to touch His wounds by His grace. Thomas then believed, missing the qualities that were inherent in the other disciples to beleive. There is a gradient to faith.

    Is the shroud for the hold-outs? The fact the RC has held this for so long is of concern.

    The Cypress Tree

  18. nomemoleste said

    If at some point it’s proven that it could not have been from Christ’s Crucifixion, how would you react?

    Put another way, How much of your faith is invested in being able to see and touch like the apostle Thomas?

    • The Cypress Tree said

      Nome, none of my faith is moved by the shroud either way; but it is a fascinating piece of evidence and has mystified all. This in of itself needs to be studied by learned, Christian believers.

      I posit, what if it is the cloth that was wrapped around our dear Jesus? There are way too many mysteries attached to it.

      I think it would be good to find other shrouds and note the differences. Because in the current shroud there are too many features that defy our scientific knowledge. This is again why LA and Mr. Jackson of Colorado among others are pursuing this. Frankly, it’s better than chasing UFOs.

      I am all for it LA! And I look forward to your thoughts and discoveries. This quest is to untoward purpose.
      Averting the shroud does not sanctify us less or more. Let’s not exalt ourselves! either way.
      Just study.

      The Cypress Tree

    • The Cypress Tree said

      Type o:… NO untoward purpose…

    • Sarah said

      They did find another shroud from the first century. It was not the same weave as the shroud of Turin, and cast doubts on the authenticity. Here’s the story from 2009: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/12/091216-shroud-of-turin-jesus-jerusalem-leprosy/

  19. cindy said

    PLEASE WOULD SOME ONE DIRECT ME TO THE WWW DOT SITE FOR THIS MINISTERY FOR PRAYER.

  20. Anyone here know how to read Hebrew? I need help understanding Genesis 9:13 and I’d like to get it from the original text.

    • Greg the Electrician said

      I don’t know Hebrew, but here is my take on it.

      There were no rainbows in the sky prior to the Flood.

      The Atmosphere maybe wasn’t the source of water that we need for plants. In the Garden of Eden, a mist would come up from the ground and supply the necessary wqter.

      The implication is that the Earth had a “cloud” canopy over the entire Earth. That had to be kind of translucent, which allowed the Sunlight thru.

      The Flood situation happened and The Fountains of the Great Deep opened up. Then, the Eath Canopy opened u and it rained 40 days and 40 nights. That’s almost impossible to think of today, with the weather patterns that we have.

      I’m suggesting that we could not have The Rainbow Factor, before the flood.

      I wish I knew Hebrew as well. It’s a better language system than ours.

      It is Alpha-Numerical, and Pictorial.

    • Sarah said

      Transliteration would read:

      Et-qashti natati be’anan vehayetah le-owt b’rit beyni uv’veyn ha’arets.

      Et (used to indicate direct object bow)
      Qashti (my bow)
      Natati (my gift, I put, I set)
      be’anan (in cloud)
      le-owt (for a sign, signal, remembrance, token)
      b’rit (covenant, agreement)
      beyni (between myself)
      uv’veyn (and between)
      ha’arets (the earth)

    • Sarah said

      whoops, forgot veha’yetah (and will be [become] — ve (and) hayehtah (verb tense from the Hebrew hayah — to be)

    • Many thanks and thank you Sarah for direct translation. I am most curious about how the word ‘Qashti’ (my bow) has been translated into rainbow, especially since rainbows are not present in clouds. I’ll have to search other portions of the Hebrew text where the word for bow appears to study it in a variety of contexts. Thanks for the assistance.

    • Sarah said

      This is something to ponder. The root word of “qashti” is “qeshet.” As you probably know if you’ve already started your study of other verses containing the word, “qeshet” is a bow and is primarily, in Scripture, translated as a bow, as in, a weapon. When God decided to destroy the earth, He brought His complete wrath to the earth in the form of water. His bow (here translated as rainbow) signifies His taking up arms (bow) against the earth. Rainbows are formed from water particles in the atmosphere, usually after a rain, usually where clouds are present. God hung up His bow in the sky (made up of water particles) and made an everlasting covenant with the earth to never take up His bow–of water–again and destroy it with water; praise Him that He always keeps His covenants. :)

    • Thanks again Sarah. If I may pick your brain as you are clearly knowledgable about Hebrew, this doesn’t tell us how we arrived that this scriptural passage is talking about a “rainbow”. That seems contrived to me and it concerns me. In fact there are many things that established covenants with humans that involve thing in the air and cloud. Moses at mount Sinai being one of them. I don’t think this is talking about a rainbow and I would like to find out modern interpretation has come to that.

    • Sarah said

      I’m not as knowledgeable I as I would like to be, but I know a woman who has a doctorate and is extremely knowledgeable in the Hebrew language and a Biblical scholar. Her name is Hollisa Alewine. You can find her at: http://www.israelnet.tv/

      She is busy, but if you give a few days to reply, she may have some more insight into this particular word qeshet.

      Blessings,
      S~

    • margaret said

      http://www.biblewheel.com/Gr/GR_Database.asp?bnum=1&cnum=14&vnum=14

  21. John Michael said

    I’m glad to see so many speaking up and I agree with some of you here today as I’ve posted my opinion on this subject months ago.

    The beatings, crucifixion and burial are all covered in God’s word through prophecy and through eye witness accounts and we have historical knowledge of the crucifixion and burial process.

    Based solely upon the word of God I don’t believe that this “shroud” is the burial cloth of the Savior.

    Were told how His body was beaten unrecognizable and how His body was prepared for the tomb and then the evidence when the tomb was entered of the burial clothes (strips) and face cloth.

    God tells us in the 2nd commandment not to make for ourselves any images,with as many who saw Jesus on a daily basis why weren’t there sculptures or paintings done of him that surely would have survived all these years?

    If this was His image then why is it not representative of His bodily state based upon the word of God? I know that God could if He wanted to, make the image of His Son pristine and yet this image shows to some degree but not entirely His bodily state after His beating and crucifixion.

    If this is God’s calling card, then why is it not conclusive and it does something that I wont believe, it contradicts Gods 2nd commandment.

    • Sarah said

      You raise very valid points. I was thinking about the second commandment as well. Is it the nature of our Heavenly Father to have a shroud with the face of a man, supposedly His Son, last all this time, knowing our weakness where idolatry is concerned? He knows our weakness; He knows our frailty and desire for objects to use in our worship of Him, but He says over and over again not to worship Him the way the heathen do. He has a prescribed manner of worship laid out in the Scriptures. I am sure you saw my post above, so I won’t rehash everything, but I agree with you in thinking it is NOT really the shroud of Yeshua.

  22. Greg the Electrician said

    It’s a very interesting study. I’m skeptical about this one, tho’.

    Can any cloth from that era, survive 2,000 years of being exposed to air or Natural Bacterias, whatever?

    On the other hand, Because The Spirit resurrected Christ, and caused a Negative photograph of Him. to appear on the shroud..Maybe that action was a Preservative Action as well.

    Also after His Resurrection, Jesus had on His “Heavenly” Garment. Where did that come from?

    The Jewish Tradition at the time, was that deceased Person was considered “Totally Dead” 3 days after Expiration. They thought that sometimes it took 3 days for The Spirit (Or Soul-?) to leave the body.

  23. Greg the Electrician said

    The markings on the shroud are not paint, right?
    The scientists would have caught that for sure.

  24. I used to not really put much into the Shroud, as I had always heard the stories about it being fake. But, over the past year and a half to two years, I’ve reconsidered that. It was actually the program “The Real Face of Jesus” with Ray Downing on the History Channel of all things, too.

    Startling how the area they used to first date the shroud was from a medieval repair that was done. Really was about the worst possible spot to take a sample. That program has brought me to the conclusion that it may in fact be my Lord, though hard to determine exactly. It is for certain that it is a man from around that time who was both scourged AND crucified, however, which was very rarely seen. The only reason our Lord was scourged was because Pilate did not want to crucify Him, but rather appease the masses, but eventually He was crucified as well.

    I found the program here, on YouTube, for any interested. Though, I’m sure most have seen it.

    • The Cypress Tree said

      One thing that is miraculous is that I know that blood sticks to fabric, bandages and the like within hours. There would be no way to remove these bandages without having chunks of flesh in it. Yet there are no fragments. It would have been difficult to remove all fragments. If this is the DNA of our true Lord, resurrected after 3 days, it is truly a miracle.

      This shroud should be studied. It is a harmless quest.

      The Cypress Tree

  25. The Cypress Tree said

    STAN DEYO GOES DARK TO PREPARE ?

    Wow LA! I just noticed this on Stan’s Front Page–no wonder the news has not been updated for a stretch.

    “To Millennium-ark Readers,

    For the next two weeks, our site will not be updated. However, our secure online shopping is still available 24/7.

    Due to the lateness of the hour, we must get our own preps finalized. In the midst of this, L.A. Marzulli’s film crew arrives Saturday to tape Stan’s portion for his next Watchers 3 video.

    To those that have phoned or emailed asking where should we move, where should we go?, it is late in the game to move to a new property and get it ready.”

    Read the rest here:
    http://standeyo.com and just scroll down to Holly and Stan’s letter.

    Do they know something we don’t know?

    I just do not buy in to the cosmic effects anymore. Nor earth changes–I think the elite are using their weather weapons to the hilt. That could mean a need to prepare against a real enemy. They can’t be too nervous about global changes while they systematically depose their own in the middle east and create conflict. Usually, these cowards would abate and go hide in their holes.

    There is no suspicious absence or quiet, a telling sign that the elite are going for cover.

    Hopefully, you will weigh in here. LA.

    The Cypress Tree

    • ktaylor50 said

      Yes.. I saw this today too! I wish I could get my family to realize to prepare is important! WE’ve done some, not enough, but most of them have done nothing!

    • The Cypress Tree said

      There is no doubt there will be a food shortage next year, and perhaps as soon as this winter. So it is smart to stock up.
      But NOT on GMO!

      Start filling jugs of water–a little drop of food grade 35% hydrogen peroxide will kill every bacteria, virus and fungus in each jug.

      The elite want ‘useless eaters’ dead. This is what you are stocking up against–not some Comet.

      I pray the men who are in their employ will wake-up !! We must pray for dissension from within.

      Stan and Holly offer a ton of free prep info at their site.

      The Cypress Tree

    • Jacqueline said

      I think with the UN meeting to divide Israel in 22 days, we have an obvious timebomb on our hands–a global one. I believe that live will never be the same once October rolls around. I’m praying Psalm 91 and going to Costco.

  26. The Cypress Tree said

    type o again! …elite are NOT going for cover.

    • ktaylor50 said

      The elite have been storing food and water by military truck loads to the underground safe places they have. One is close to where I used to live in WV, white sulphur springs..the Greenbrier. They can get there through tunnels from the govt buildings. In fact the Colorado and VA earthquakes are now being told are the result of nuclear explosions in these underground tunnels, rumbling through the ground. One video from Colorado you can hear the noise for a LONG time, and right before the earthquake there. Video : http://youtu.be/VvnHyU8e1c8

    • The Cypress Tree said

      Not a good place to go and hide is it? If nukes are going off.
      God did say he would bury these men in their hiding places.

      My Lord we are at a strange time in history.
      The DC/Vatican/London cabal has fueled so much hate of America, that all its citizens are sitting ducks.
      The innocents always suffer from the stupidity of the psychopaths running nations.
      Yes I know you will say they are not innocent…but in comparison, they are.
      The working classes cannot be help accountable for what is occurring. That almost the entire population.

      The Cypress Tree

    • Greg the Electrician said

      There are huge cavern systems under Kansas City where huge supplies of foodstuffs are stored. We’re susposed to have a 3 month supply for the midwest.

  27. richard said

    I encourage you all to watch the following video from the Discovery channel. I tend to agree with Dr Mark Goodacher.

    What did Jesus look like?

    • Above all the hype and regardless of whether this shroud is authentic or not, what concerns me the most is speculating over what Jesus looks like. Without a doubt, if there is data and information that the evil one could capitalize on to deceive people, he will!! We are given specific events and clues as to Jesus’s return, presumably ones that satan can not fake or steal. But the likeness of Jesus would be too juicy for satan to overlook and not utilize. Think of it, a man steps forward who claims to be Jesus and his likeness is spot on to the shroud or the artistic rendering of what we are “told” he is supposed to look like. Many would fall for it. The shroud to me is interesting and a beautiful artifact if authentic (which I believe it is) but the implications of us speculating about His likeness is dangerous in my opinion.

  28. Kimberly said

    I’m not understanding what all the drama is about the Shroud. :-/ It’s not like we are going to hold up the picture of the Shroud next to Jesus’ face when He comes, and then say “uhh.. nope! Not Him.. next.” and dismiss Him. ( ??? ) Most of us had strong faith in Him before we even knew there was such a thing as the Shroud. If it’s a fake, someday it will prove itself to be fake, and the praise and glory… and faith… continues unto God forever and ever. It’s interesting to me that there is such great detail in how He was crucified and how the Shroud matches those details. I don’t see how there is anything wrong with studying this. We are to test all things, not to be paranoid of all things. If it’s false, God will make sure that we find out. We are sheep! Not only are we sheep.. we are HIS sheep. We need steering… and we have a Good Shepherd that will see to it that we are led to safety… in all things. I say continue testing the Shroud. :-) There’s undeniable coolness to it, even if it’s just scientific coolness.

    • Rhema said

      Kimberly, I’m soooo in agreement w/ you. As usual.

    • Randall a man of God said

      Amen!!!

    • Lisa said

      Yup, Yup. I’m in agreement too. The spirit who lives in us always helps us to see the truth. If we err, He lets us know and steers us onward. He is faithful. If it is not true, He will give us witness in our spirit. The reason so many of us find it amazing and can even weep is because it calls into account, bearing witness with our spirit of what our Savior endured for us. We do not worship this cloth, we worship the one and only Son of God and we yearn for the day we do see Him face to face. We know that our faith isn’t in this item, it is our Lord Jesus Christ himself. And it is the scriptures from which we learn of who He is and what He has done and will do…it is the scriptures that reveal what was done to Him and much of what the sciptures say is evident on this cloth and that is why we consider it at all because of what we know the scriptures to say…the scriptures are our final authority along with the leading and agreement of His Holy Spirit. Amen!

    • Kimberly, I agree with your sentiment that evaluating and studying the shroud is a good and cool thing to do, and I also agree that we wouldnt dismiss Jesus based on this artifact… However (and you knew it was coming :-) ) there might be a danger from a different angle. See my response directly above to Richard’s comment. There is a danger of a false Christ looking like what we have speculated our Lord will look like.

    • Kimberly said

      No, I TOTALLY agree actually. When I first heard about the shroud a long time ago… I was amazed. But my immediate thought after that was “alrighty… be prepared for this to be stolen by the devil and twisted some way to produce some kind of deception.” And then! That led me to believe that the lingering blood on there (and this is only if the shroud is true) the lingering blood on there could be stolen by the enemy creeps in order to manufacture another Jesus.. a false one! 8-O

      My little thoughts based on the shroud has always been: He left those who believe in Him a polaroid picture for this century to find.. because He knew that we would have technology to find it and say “oh look… what’s that!?!?” .. thus… making the scriptures come to life after many centuries of attack on Jesus… attack on the very existence of God… from the Darwin stuff.

      For those who hate Jesus and are at war with Him, my thought has been that He has laid that there, with His DNA on it in order to set a trap for the enemy who thinks he can play god and completely be disgusting by wearing half of Jesus’ earth suit. The other half is a bunch of weirdness mixed with the satan himself. I mean, heck!.. the very Word of God (the Bible) can be used dangerously… and we all know that for sure came from God. Ya know what I mean? :-/

      I think for every good thing there is out there… no matter what it is… satan is going to try to get his hands on it to pervert it. And Jesus may allow that for a time… but all their schemes will come tumbling down when He puts His fist down as says “no more” .. Bottom line .. it could be a blessing for those who believe, and trap for those who don’t.

      I’m in no way holding onto this tight-handed though. All of His awesomeness has been revealed to us (well, not all)… but a lot of His awesomeness has been revealed to us in His Word… and that’s where my true joy and faith is built. Anything extra I take with a “hmm… well… (if) that’s true…. that is pretty dang neat!” attitude.

    • Kimberly said

      Ahaha… and I was just thinking… I don’t care if one day we are all looking at the shroud in a museum (or wherever), and a breath enters the shroud and from the shroud arises a body, a man that looks exactly like what we think looks like Jesus… I ain’t buyin’ it! Us sheepies of His have been given very clear instruction to not go after His “look-a-likes” or “posers.” “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘look He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.”

      I think if we were to see Him here and now (I’m in no way saying that we can or should) .. but I imagine if we were to see Him in the flesh while still in our earthly body… I would think our hearts would have to bear witness that it was Him before the features of His face would cause us to recognize Him. Like…. the guys on the road to Emmaus… they didn’t know Jesus was talking with them… but they said “did not our hearts burn within us while He talked with us..?” I think my heart would know before my eyes would. I’m just talking though.. this really had nothing to do with anything. :-)

    • Amem to that. Eyes deceive and our faith and spirit will be our guide. My fear of deception is never for you Kimberly. I hope you know that. If anyone is a.more prepared bride of Christ than you, I haven’t seen them. It’s all of His lost and vulnerable children I worry about.

    • Bon said

      Fear not Hopeful. His sheep know his voice.

    • Not so Bon. Not ALL the sheep lest Jesus would not of instructed Simon Peter to tend the sheep. There is such a thing as the spirit of truth and not all disciples have it, which is one reason why the body of Christ is so important. We need each other and it also keeps us humble. I for one seek truth in all ways, however it is a very lonely place and times I feel desperate and depressed. Hence those with the spirit of joy and the strong faith that comes with that are very important, to me in particular. Both you and Kimberly have the spirit of joy more than most. Thank you for all of the joyous, Christ centered comments you bring to this ministry.

    • Bon said

      Hopeful, Kimberly may have a joyful spirit, but I struggle. I look for signs of my Lord like an addict because this world is so ugly I can hardly face it. Its hard to ignore the things people do to innocent children and animals every second of every day. I’m on here a lot because I’m always looking for fingerprints. That comforts me. I want out of here so badly its suffocating!

      I’ve seen the way you fear and worry for the lost and I completely understand. I used to fret terribly about people in religious mentalities that I see heading for “weeping and gnashing of teeth”. It seemed unfair to me that they THINK they are doing the right thing!

      Well, there is a way that seems right to a man but the end is death. I used to fear for Catholics because of the pagan atrocities and Mary worship going on. I concluded that they, though indeed DECIEVED, will not be held blameless because they had every opportunity to look into it but didn’t. Anyone can see certain things don’t add up with religions, but they choose to ignore and stay in the club. WHAT is more important than your soul?! We all have the ability to seek the truth and he that IS the truth.

      Remember how the disciples were instructed to tap the dust from their feet? They were only obligated to feed the sheep by providing something (the gospel) for them to eat. It is then up to them to feed themselves.

      Take his peace upon you Hopeful. Don’t fret! I have to remind myself this constantly! Remind ME if you see ME fretting ok?

    • Will do Bon. I believe we understand each other a lot better. Thank you for the uplifting words.

  29. ktaylor50 said

    Interesting thread and like so many other things..many different opinions. I will add one more… so what DID or WHO did Jesus look like?? His Mom or his Dad??? His mom would be Jewish, but his dad, who created all man in his image… white, black, olive, yellow, red tones…he must be all of these! So Maybe he had the long nose of the romans, the dark hair of the middle eastern, and long face of the europeans… Just a thought!!

    • mark said

      K, I’m thinking all of the above. I bet he’s a composite of all He died for.

    • Lisa said

      Never thought of that, cool idea. The other point I wanted to make was in reference to above statements about the Lord not being good looking…we know what the scriptures say, how he would not have any cumliness and would be beaten beyond recognition…however, I believe that when we are in love with Him the only thing we see when we see His face is beauty, no matter what he really looks like. I mean, even if He looked like Abraham Lincoln (as someone suggested above — not being good looking) He would still be beautiful to us because we see His love for us. Just think of it this way, when you fall in love with someone, even if they are ugly and most people think that they are ugly too, you only see that person’s beauty. I personally don’t believe that our Lord was unattractive, I believe the scriptures are teaching that He would not look like what we as humans would expect of a God…meaning Overly muscular and large and tremendously fine features, etc…I think the scriptures are teaching that he would look like the average joe, not unattractive but nothing special making you say WOW who is that..don’t forget many were expecting the Messiah to come and conquer Rome, therefore, they were probably expecting some Mighty Man of Valor in outward appearance but our Lord I believe was of a humble appearance but that doesn’t mean he was unattractive, just normal like the rest of us, He was truly one of us! Amen!!

  30. binny said

    Personally, IMHO, I would suggest reading about the Shroud rather than watching a video or tv show on it. Written words in book form go into so much more detail than a flash-bang video ever could. We’ve become the generation that’s too busy to read anymore! (:

  31. john B said

    Personally, I believe that Jesus was wrapped up in bandages like unto Lazarus whom He raised from the dead. and that the bandages(wrappings) and face cloth found in the tomb neatly folded Jn20:7 was the work of the two angels who on resurrection day (Sunday) unwrapped His body by ministering unto Him. Those angels were the ones who rolled the stone at the entrance and was witnessed by Mary. it is all there in the scriptural account..

    The shroud may stimulate faith in some, and yes, I agree Richard, it is also an object of Worship to many.
    Lasting Faith, The eternal Kind is God’s gift to us. It is by the witness of His spirit through the instrumentality of His word “Calling” us unto believing the Gospel of our Salvation.

    john b

    • Greg the Electrician said

      I heard that the folded napkins, was a sign that there was going to be a return of the one who folded it.

      Kind of restaurant, table-manners thing…I’m not really that sure of I’m saying here.

  32. Bon said

    I think if the Catholic Church were going to produce a fake “relic”, it would be an image of “Mary” (Queen of Heaven).

    • john B said

      We still do not know how this shroud came into Catholic possession, why don’t they say so.

      john B

    • Bon said

      IDK…WHO tried to burn it, and why? Why did Satan desire the body of Moses? What exactly is the grail and why did they desire it so? Any real Christian understands that eternal life comes by faith and not by literally drinking out of some cup. I think one huge mistake we have always made is underestimating the intelligence of the peoples of the past and why they did things.

      My faith would not be affected at all to discover the shroud not to be the true burial cloth of Yeshua, but I believe it is.

  33. John Michael said

    Why would God make us an image when He was against us making images? That in and of itself makes me reject this as not from God.

    Has any one thought that maybe this shroud is the product of satanic deception?

    Get man to put his eyes on what he can see instead of what he should believe.

    On top of that the RCC is in possesion of the shroud and wont say how or why.

    • The Cypress Tree said

      Oh John Michael, sweet one. Ease up brother. Just let our prolific LA look into this. I am confident none of us are sinning or adulating. We are just studying. Jesus was seen by many; we are no exception. Granted he looks beautiful and perfect now.
      No harm done, love. If it is untoward,we will soon know.

      The Cypress Tree

    • Sarah said

      I, respectfully, don’t agree with you that He looks beautiful and perfect now. I think He looks as He did after His violent scourging. He still has His scars (John 20:27) and we will know Him when we see Him by His scars and we will mourn. (Is. 53:5, Zech. 12:10, Rev. 1:7)

    • Not so hasty cypress. I won’t slap a blasphemy label on this study, but the study doesn’t come without dangers of deception. Any false christ who looks like the shroud or what we have speculated what the real Jesus looks like might gain instant credibility to being the messiah to those who don’t have the spirit of truth manifested in them.

    • Dee said

      EXCELLENT POINT! KEEP UP THE GOOD THINKING!

  34. margaret said

    • Bon said

      This guy makes good points, but I would like to address these points:

      1) THE NAPKIN
      I think the key thing to point out about this is “bound about his head”. I understand that after the body was placed between the cloth, The head would have then had a scarf tied over it to complete the dressing.

      2) THE BEARD
      Did they have to pluck every last hair from his beard? That doesn’t even make plausible sense. It would make more sense for them to have grabbed and yanked a patch of it out. I don’t think its even possible to rip an entire beard off without ripping the entire lower face off with it.

      3) LONG HAIR
      How long exactly would you say the hair on the shroud image is? Is it even clearly to the shoulders? If you saw a woman with a bob, would you say she was “short” haired? It was only forbidden for high priests to SHAVE their hair. The exact style is not clear. I somehow doubt devout jewish men wore their hair like Julius Caesar.

    • Bon said

      σουδάριον means towel or handkerchief. “Napkin” makes you think of a little square you get with your Mc D’s.

    • nomemoleste said

      1 Cor. 14
      14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
      15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
      16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

    • Bon said

      Not sure what you’re trying to point out Nome. The bold that the video guy used? or 16 saying but if any man seem to be argumentative or controversial (?) WE HAVE NO SUCH CUSTOM?

    • richard said

      Bon and Nomeleste birng up and excellent point!

      1st Corinthians 11:14

      “Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it
      is a shame unto him?”

      If Jesus had long hair then he was not the Son of God. It is impossible for Jesus to have long hair for long hair on a man is a shame to him. There is no way that Jesus would have shamed himself and still be the Son of God. For a man to do something, have
      something or be something that brings shame to him is to bring shame to his name. In order to be the perfect sacrifice on the Cross

      Jesus had to live a life free of all sin and all shame. Therefore, a longhaired Jesus could not be the Son of God.

      So it begs the questions if Paul knew that Jesus has long hair why would he write this in 1st Corinthians?

    • Bon said

      I brought up no such point Richard. I merely addressed the idea that was proposed in the video with that scripture as the catalyst.

      The Corinthian scripture does not define what “long” hair in a man is measured by and then goes on to say that “we have no such custom”. Its not really clear what point is even being made. This same chapter says a man shouldn’t cover his head and a woman cant pray without her head covered. Am I a disgrace for cutting my hair? Have you or do you wear a ball cap Richard? I don’t think we understand this chapter or its context.

  35. margaret said

    LA I believe The shroud is going to be part of the end time deception.

  36. Gordy said

    Peter Schiff exposes college scam – Interviews Kelli Space (1 of 2)

  37. Bozz said

    “Then there are the marks on the back of the wrists that show that the Romans drove the nails through the palm of the hands, but at an angle so they would come out in between the bones at the base of the wrists, on the back of the hand.”

    Hmmmmmmmmmm…. Not according to Mark Eastman

    http://www.khouse.org/articles/1998/113/

    The victim was then placed on his back, arms stretched out and nailed to the cross bar. The nails, which were generally about 7-9 inches long, were placed between the bones of the forearm (the radius and ulna) and the small bones of the hands (the carpal bones). (Figure 1.)

    The placement of the nail at this point had several effects. First it ensured that the victim would indeed hang there until dead. Secondly, a nail placed at this point would sever the largest nerve in the hand called the median nerve.

    The severing of this nerve is a medical catastrophe. In addition to severe burning pain the destruction of this nerve causes permanent paralysis of the hand. Furthermore, by nailing the victim at this point in the wrist, there would be minimal bleeding and there would be no bones broken! Thus scriptures were fulfilled:

    I can count all my bones: they look and stare upon me. Psalm 22:17

    He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken. Psalm 34:20

    • Bozz said

      http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/W/wrist.html

    • Bozz said

      The shroud most likely is a forgery. There most be something wrong when the History channel is promoting it with catholic priests singing praises to it… If it`s a forgery how did they do it? How do “they” do the authentic crop circles?

      I agree with those also who cite Isaiah 53 and other scripture (2nd commandment)…

      2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight

      Luke 11:29 …and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonah the prophet

    • Sarah said

      This is great info, thanks for sharing your thoughts and Scripture references. Blessings, S~

  38. nomemoleste said

    So called anthropologists make mountains out of pieces of bones and teeth, or fossils in which the original material was completely replaced by mineral deposits. So called astronomers and high energy physicists consider fact so called “dark matter” which has never been seen supposedly because it fits a theory. And black holes because of effects on other stellar material. Yet they haven’t a clue about how many other possibilities might explain the shards and webs they take as evidence. And supposedly they’re not motivated politically, by money, fame, or evil.

    Fallen angels that we grant can cause major mayhem and false evidence (*) — whether directly or through human agents — can surely also contrive convincing artifacts for their own sinister intents. (* – that we see exposed in the Word and by deliverance and apologetics ministries, cp. lying signs and wonders)

    Where is the cross or the nails or the crown of thorns? Where’s the soldier’s spear used to pierce Christ’s side? Where is the flail used to scourge Him? Or cups or jugs or chalices of His blood? How about the spices used to preserve the body….

    Where’s the Ark of the Covenant, the Tablets, the Bowl of Manna, or Aaron’s Rod?

    Where is the bronze snake??!! You know about that right?

    2 Kings 18 (cp. Numbers 21:8-9)

    1 Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. 2 Twenty and five years old was he when he began to reign; and he reigned twenty and nine years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name also was Abi, the daughter of Zachariah.
    3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did. 4He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

    The shroud might not become a snare for you who are strong in the faith….

    But you basically agree that it’s a picture of a crucifixion and possibly of Christ. If we had a picture of Christ — what would happen? That brass snake they’d raise up on a cross makes my point.

    With people making shrines for marian apparitions or stains that resemble what they think of as the figure of Christ…. do you doubt for a second that the shroud would become an idol — if it were “authenticated?”

    That said, I find it interesting as a relic — but I’m autistic enough not to care much about the image. (As for how Christ looked/looks, I’ve wondered at times if Jesus were somewhat autistic or disabled or had vision or hearing impairments? Would he have miraculously healed himself? Why not heal the scars which Thomas felt?)

    I could easily be wrong. Many value the examination and the possibility that the shroud is authentic. I’ve given some of the reasons (or rationale if you prefer) that I don’t.

    I’ll happily agree to disagree on this. By all means though let it be thoroughly examined.

    • John Michael said

      I’m not convinced that this is the burial cloth of Jesus and believe that it’s not even a burial cloth of anyone who was crucified. As was pointed out by No Me Moleste, if this were to be authenticated and lets face it, it hasnt, it would surely become an instant shrine.

      Just a week ago Jesus was seen by a family in a tree on their property, lots of candles lit for it with the false image of the mother of Jesus. Weve all seen various stories about toast, tortillas, water stains etc. of what has been called Jesus or Mary. I remember a guy a few years ago talk about his find and how spiritual he felt about it and then he said he was going to put it on ebay and sell it.

      The devil will us anything he can to trip us up, to separate us from God and cause us to worship something/anything else.

      I cant imagine any kind of evidence that could prove to me that this is the burial cloth of our Savior. Any money spent on more research would be better spent feeding the starving masses around the world and or buying Bibles.

      My heart is heavy over the division this is causing here on this site and in that respect it doesnt further the cause of Christ.

      We will agree and we will disagree and in the end we must keep our eyes and our minds on God through Jesus Christ our Lord and put our faith in Him. God Bless you all my beloved.

    • john B said

      Hi john Michael; Don’t think division, Think Godly discussion among brethren.

      We all do not really know for sure, Doubt is no Sin but a part of discernment.

      some believe it is genuine some believe it is Fake. so what! at least it provoked a look into the scriptures and that is good as I have often said before we ought not go beyond what is written… I think apostle Paul said that!

      john B

  39. Pravda Veritas said

    I agree, L.A.! The Shroud is amazing! When Unsolved Mysteries did a segment on it, they showed that it has a three-dimensional image left on it. How amazing is that?

  40. lisa said

    The Shroud has fascinated me for years. The video link above is the first in a 12pt series of a presentation by a man who was also on the team that studied the shroud in the 70′s. He thought he’d see it, pronounce it fake within 5 minutes, and go home. But the man who came to scoff stayed to pray. It is one of the best vids I have seen regarding the shroud and is very moving. it is definitely worth the time it takes to watch it.
    I’m pretty much a lurker here, and never comment, but I had to at least recommend this series.
    I hope y’all enjoy it.
    Just Plain Ole Lisa

  41. Gordy said

  42. latenightlisa said

    I’m not going to comment on the Shroud cause I know I’ll start off all “huffie-puffie”. LOL!

    Even if it was real I’m too soured by the fact so many “Christians” venerate the thing.

    Kind of interesting to think about but personally it means nothing to me.

  43. john B said

    Something else to ponder about concerning the resurrection of Jesus.

    Did He just come to life or was he Glorified that moment He came to life, or was He glorified after his ascention?

    Touch me not! he said to Mary at the resurrection site. Why?

    He appeared to Paul on The Damascus way in the brightness of his Glory blinding the Man Not so The eye witnesses before His ascension.

    The Angels unwrapped his body whether it was prior to his resurrection or after makes no matter as H was not yet glorified.

    john b

    • Matt said

      That’s a good question john B , and I think the problem comes down more to the word that the KJV has used saying ‘touch me not’. The Bible Knowledge Commentary explains saying the following for John 20:17-18.

      “She may have embraced Him physically, for the Lord responded, Do not hold on to Me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to My brothers and tell them. . . . These words spoke of a new relationship, new relatives, and a new responsibility. Many wanted to “hold onto” Jesus. The KJV translation “Touch Me not,” has caused many interpreters to wonder why He could not be “touched.” The NIV translation is more accurate, for He certainly was not untouchable (cf. Matt. 28:9; John 20:27). Mary had lost Jesus once before (at His crucifixion) and it was natural to fear the loss of His presence again.

      Jesus said, in effect, “This (the physical contact) is not My real presence for the church. A new relationship will begin with My Ascension and the gift of the Holy Spirit to the church.” Jesus then explained the fact of the new relatives. He called His disciples His brothers. Earlier He had said they were friends: “I no longer call you servants . . . instead, I have called you friends” (15:15). Believers in Jesus become a part of Jesus’ family with God as their Father (cf. Heb. 2:11-12; Rom. 8:15-17, 29; Gal. 3:26). Mary’s new responsibility was to testify to His risen presence. She was the recipient of four special graces: to see angels; to see Jesus risen; to be the first to see Him alive; and to be a proclaimer of the good news. Christians today are also the recipients of special grace; they too are given this new responsibility to witness to the world (cf. Matt. 28:16-20).”

      So there wasn’t anything wrong with actually touching Jesus before He had ascended to His Father. The command is better understood not to ‘hold onto’ Him or prevent Him from leaving again. And as to when He when back to the Father, that is given in the Acts 1 passage that you mentioned.

    • Matt said

      After his resurrection Jesus told Mary,” touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my … Jesus was with them for 40 days more, then He ascended (acts 1:3-11).

    • Bozz said

      The NIV translation is not to be trusted. I think if Mary would be holding on to Him, the Word would say so. “Don`t hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father” just doesn`t sound right.

    • Matt said

      Doesn`t sound right to me either Bozz, I was just throwing it out there for discussion.

    • Bon said

      Interesting points brought up here guys! I looked at the Greek and the interpretation of ἅπτου can be interpreted as “cease holding on” as if to prepare her for the ascension and losing him in the form she was accustomed to. How loving! I had never looked at it that way before! I LOVE learning new insight concerning our Lord! I practically LIVE for it! THANKS!!!

    • Sarah said

      His statement had to do with his ascension to the Father as the First Fruits of the resurrection that morning offering Himself as a “wave offering” before the Lord. If you will recall after He presented Himself to the Father that morning, later he told Thomas to touch Him.

    • Bon said

      “wave offering” ?

      So are you saying he ascended twice?

    • Sarah said

      Not into the Realm of Heaven, but possibly into the sky. If you are not familiar with the Wave offering of the Old Testament Scriptures I would encourage you to make study of it. We have to STOP thinking in the Greek mentality and look at it from a Hebrew and Biblical point of view. Yeshua would have fulfilled the Feast of First Fruits just as He did the Passover, to the VERY LETTER, or He was not the Messiah.

    • Bon said

      I am not thinking in the “Greek” mentality Sarah. I only refer to the Greek because it is the original language the gospel was written in.

      Thanks for the “encouragement”. I did look at “wave offering”.I do believe that all of the old testament things were and will be fulfilled. I believe the most of the purpose FOR the old testament was to provide a picture of spiritual things.

      I don’t agree with you as far as “possibly in the sky”.

      We have always been taught to think that he said “don’t touch me!” as if she were so unclean. This just doesn’t sound like Yeshua at any other point. Im leaning towards the offering being presented at the formal ascension.

    • Bozz said

      E-sword has this to say on the word touch:

      G680
      ἅπτομαι
      haptomai
      hap’-tom-ahee
      Reflexive of G681; properly to attach oneself to, that is, to touch (in many implied relations): – touch.

    • john B said

      Guys ; the point I was making is in ref to the shroud being some snapshot negative we are told being caused by his resurrection. in my thinking only a glorified body would cause that.

      scripture indicates that the glorification of Jesus occurred after the ascension. so; how was the image formed on the shroud if his coming alive again was still in a tangible way being able to be touched.

      anyway it is not that important . as Apostle Paul said;” We no longer Know Him in the Flesh”.

      He was revealed in the flesh, was vindicated in the Spirit, beheld by angels,proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world,Taken up in Glory. 1Tim2:16.

      It is in that Glory that he shall return. amen

      john b

    • Bon said

      I agree that the resurrection would give off that radiating power. I believe we will be transformed to incorruptible light the same way. He was the first to manifest redemption!

      The point made about “touch me not” has been rattling around in my head most of my life. It always seemed a bit harsh. Why would Yeshua not be able to touch a “sinner” after he rose up? He is the SOAP! It makes MUCH more sense when you keep the whole conversation together as it happened.

      He asked her why she was crying, and she replies, “Because someone has taken my Lord (his body)”. He then says “its me” and she rushes to him. NOW he’s gonna switch gears and say,” Back up off me foul wench!” ??!!! It makes FAR more sense if you keep with what they were discussing (her crying and despair). He lets her know its him, but then warns her she needs to un-”attach” (Bozz) herself to his bodily form because he will be ascending to the Father!

  44. The Cypress Tree said

    Good morning Jesus peeps,

    The shroud real or not exists. Whether this is the real one or not is the issue. It has been a subject of study for millennia, clearly. Perhaps it will be debunked; perhaps, not. What are we to do? Avert our gaze?

    Can a false image be drawn from the shroud? Of course. There are already diverging images. Could it confirm the resurrection (the point LA is focused on)? Perhaps. Perhaps not. If real, is the shroud a graven image? No. It is Christ himself, remnant of His flesh and Holy. If false, yes, if we begin to idolize as the RCs do with their many effigies. But all reports show it would be impossible to manufacture it as is.

    I believe when Lazarus was resurrected he still had his bandages on his person when he emerged from his tomb. If Jesus’ bandages were removed and left behind by our Lord, this is not an accident. God’s plan is always perfect. These are details in the story of the resurrection, the moment in history that confirmed the Lamb is of God and ascended to our Father. And indeed Jesus was transformed because clearly everyone had some challenge recognizing Him. It is also reported that He was in a new garment; so the bandages were left behind. Someone collected these, I believe it was a Roman soldier who loved Christ, if memory serves.

    If anything the PTB have spent more time trying to falsify it by picking newer pieces from the shroud; this is suspicious to me.

    The burn marks, the lack of fragments, the blood stains at the crown of thorns…these are remarkable. The shroud has been dated to the time of the crucifixion as well. Even more remarkable. Forget not that the woman who shed blood touched the edge of his garment in a large boisterous crowd; yet, He knew he was touched and healed her. The love of our Lord drives us to know Him and touch Him, even if only a remnant of a dressing. We touch this ‘garment’ in faith, in love. Not because we idolize it; because yearn to be near Him, and know Him to be our Lord and Savior.

    In the word it states, ["a rebellious nation seeks a sign, but it will receive no sign"], if memory serves. Indeed. But in the end of days, knowledge will increase. Prophecy will increase. This is not business as usual, if we are in the birth pangs. Are we meant to know this at this point in history.

    I am at peace with this quest to whatever end result. It is after all LA’s task to interview, probe and bring you the information in audio, video, blog and vlog. You will all agree that LA’s 30 years of research on this topic far exceeds our knowledge here. Notwithstanding, his context is that of a faithful believer. We must be humble and resist pontificating without the benefit of his report. Let’s see what interviews and his work brings. No harm, no foul. The satanists are always scheming ways to increase the falling away–with or without the shroud. As it is written.

    We come by faith with or without the shroud. This does not affect the believer in any way.

    Let’s not forget that the Lord returns as lightning from the east and the west; not as a man in the room. It is written and we will have the word to debunk any attempt to say the Christ is returned in this manner, using the shrouds image. Won’t work. The Christ returns in glory and no less.

    The Cypress Tree

    NOTICE: Dutchinse agrees with my opinion on the falseness of these incoming planets and comets after 8 months of surveying HAARP, intel and the cosmos, daily. The only effect that he believes is occurring in the ring of the fire for example is the “glacial rebound effect”. Listen to his declaration late yesterday:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/dutchsinse#p/u/1/cpRs8A6m90A

    • john B said

      Cypress no one is having a go at La’s research credibility. He posted something that has always troubled me being brought up with the shroud image around me witnessing it veneration by many.

      i am sure that LA understands that we are all seekers of Truth and in my experience a good discussion about an issue or a doctrine done in Humility can bring out the Light of fellowship in the Truth.

      Another Question who gave Jesus His garment? He would have died naked.

      scripture does not say, but; Two angels were present that morning.

      God bless Cypress.

      john b

  45. The Cypress Tree said

    Here is LA’s post from March 2010. Very telling!

    “Last night on Acceleration Radio we hit the number 1 spot during the first hour! Thank you all for listening. My interview with Barrie Schwortz was an eye opener, and I believe we hit on some interesting points that may never have been discussed before. The most startling one was the fact that the carbon dating tests that was done in 1978 seems to have been manipulated! In other words it had been agreed on, nearly two years prior to the examination of the shroud by the S.T.U.R.P. team, that three samples would be taken from the Shroud and then given to six labs for testing. At the last-minute the S.T.U.R.P. team was informed that for “expediency,” they were only going to select one sample. The sample they chose was from the lower left hand corner of the Shroud, and Schwortz claimed that this part of the Shroud appeared to be different from the rest of the cloth, even to the naked eye! What was stunning and may have been a first – at least it was with me – is that Oxford University received an anonymous donation exceeding one million pounds for having proved that the Shroud was a fake! Sounds like the stuff that conspiracies are made of to me! This manipulating of the carbon dating overshadowed all of the other forensic evidence that pointed to the authenticity of the Shroud. This still remains the “party line” in the main stream media, as article after article points to the carbon dating as proving the Shroud was a fake. However, as Schwortz pointed out in last nights show, there is now a paper that was published in 2005, from one of the original members of the team, that states that the sample was part of a re-weave that was done in the 15th century and thus skewed the carbon dating. There are some of you who want me to cease talking about the Shroud, a position that I will never take and here’s why. The Shroud is forensic evidence. In this age where science is both priest and king, the Shroud points to an event that happened 2000 years ago that is both miraculous and supernatural in origin. It defies our known physics and for Christians this is the most important event in all of history. I speak of course of the resurrection from the dead, of Yahshua/Jesus. In light of the conspiratorial nature of the 1 million pounds given to Oxford it would appear that there are men and women who do not want the truth of the Shroud to win out. I believe that this is because if it is established that the Shroud is the “real deal,” then it changes everything. It validates by forensic evidence an extraordinary event that happened almost 2000 years ago. In turn this then begs the question that if the stories are true about the resurrection then what about the rest of stories? What about His return? His second coming? Now you can see why the Shroud is dangerous. It doesn’t change my faith one iota, but it threatens those who serve another master, those who obfuscate truth, those who want to keep the masses dumbed down, those who are waiting for the son of perdition…”

    The Cypress Tree

  46. Perhaps the shroud was for the gospel apostles, to confirm for them that this was the shroud of Jesus and that he has I’m fact been resurrected. Otherwise the first thing they would think is that His body was stolen. Beyond that it has no “practical” purpose other than being a cool artifact not to be idolized.

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