L.A. Marzulli's Blog

Politics, Prophecy & the Supernatural

Mary in Ireland? Cairo Update: Medjugorje:

Posted by lamarzulli on December 24, 2009

Thousands gather as Virgin Mary set to make major statement at Knock shrine

Church moves to quash claims, saying they damage Irish Catholic faith

Mr Coleman claimed: “I have seen her twice in recent months in the Gable chapel at Knock. The statue comes alive, she opens her arms, a lovely pink cloak comes around her, there are stars above her head, she turned into Jesus, then to Padre Pio and then back to herself. While the vision is happening, I can see nothing else….

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Thousands-witness-apparitions-of-Virgin-Mary-in-skies-over-Knock-shrine-66378947.html?showAll=y

Let’s strip it down and expose what is going on here. In the Nephilim trilogy there is a scene in which a fallen angel shapeshifts in the same way this entity is shape shifting in Ireland. The statue comes alive, she opens her arms, a lovely pink cloak comes around her, there are stars above her head, she turned into Jesus, then to Padre Pio and then back to herself. This is purely demonic, plain and simple it is the work of the lying one. Remember we are told in the Guidebook to the Supernatural i.e. the Bible, that the enemy can appear as an angel of light. What is appearing in Ireland, fits this description exactly. Why would Mary shape-shift into Jesus and then Padre Pio? This is the work of the demonic and unless a person rebukes first and asks questions later they get sucked into it. Also, once again we see that no one is testing the spirit. It’s a very simple test. “Did Jesus come in the flesh?” The fallen ones go nuts over this and here’s why. They know that Jesus’ coming on the earth sealed their doom, trapped them in this dimension and the shedding of His blood, on Calvary defeated them. Why doesn’t anyone wield this powerful challenge?

Now here’s some new news about the Cairo phenomena: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091224/wl_africa_afp/egyptreligionchristian

Portions from the article are in Italics my comments will follow.
“It is not possible to know the reason for the Virgin’s appearance, but it could be to push people towards faith, and help put an end to their problems,” Fishay said.
People are desperate for help in this world, there is no disputing that, but this longing can also lead to the acceptance of a false supernatural manifestation. Yes, the apparitions will push people toward faith, but faith in what? Therein lies the danger that is present in the deception. I will close this post with a recent quote from Megjugorje. In doing so I will point out the end-game of the deception.

Maybe her appearance is to bring people closer together, maybe it will bring about the end of the state of tension between Muslims and Christians and an end to extremism,” he said.
How do you spell one-world religious system as the Guidebook tells us will happen at the end of the age. Are these apparitions a harbinger of great signs and wonders that will dazzle us? Remember, even the elect would be deceived if that were possible!

Medjugorje. (This is an apparition sight that has been going on for decades)
Question: Mirjana, What does Our Lady say about the end times?
I would like to recommend to you do not talk about chastisements, because Our Lady came in Medjugorje to help us and not to destroy us. What She said is, “What I started in Fatima, I will finish in Medjugorje. My heart will triumph.” If our Heavenly Mother’s heart will triumph, what to fear?
At first glance what Mirjana says, appears to be spiritual and most who read it will accept it and perhaps embrace it. What I take great umbrage with is when the apparitions states:  My heart will triumph. Sorry, but this is not the Mary of the Bible. This is an imposter! Her heart will not triumph over anything! This is what is so misleading. It is Jesus, not Mary who rides in triumph at the battle of Armageddon. It is Jesus, not Mary whose blood covers our sins and sets us free and gives us eternal life. It is Jesus, not Mary who tells us, I will be with you even unto the end of the age. We can’t have it both ways. This is what the end-game is, plain and simple. It draws people away from the one who is the protector of our souls and places us in the hands of a fallen angel. It is deception to the highest degree and unfortunately there are millions of people who are deceived. As I have stated before, Satan comes with all signs and lying wonders…. If an angel proclaims another gospel let him be cursed! This is another gospel.  This is not the Mary of the Bible, in Ireland, Cairo or Medjugorje.

On a completely different note! Acceleration Radio was #1 in out time slot last night! Thank you one and all for making that happen!

Merry Christmas Everyone!

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101 Responses to “Mary in Ireland? Cairo Update: Medjugorje:”

  1. LAURA said

    This “Mary” also appeared in Jeremiah chpt44.She tries to take all the attributes that belong only to God Himself.She also tells people to build shrines so that she can be worshipped there.She is nothing less than a lying,evil demon usurper.Does anyone also notice that when people pray the rosary there are many more prayers to mary than God.I watched the film on utube “Messages From Heaven” is an awesome film about this satanic lying sign and wonder.And Merry Christmas to all!

  2. matt said

    Merry Christmas everyone.

  3. pilgtim said

    Good to see that you have presented yourself as an expert on Marian apparitions.

    I go along with you on the Knock nonsense.

    I have doubts about Cairo.

    But Medjugorje? Think again – and take time to examine in depth rather than a line from a reported saying from one of the seers. Definitely not the best way to discern. But I respect you right to hold an opinion even if it is shown not to be infallible.

    Gotta go and get a manger ready. Have a blessed Christmas.

    • John B said

      Pilgtim, I have investigated Medjugorje and have found the thrust of the message to be in contradiction to the written words of The Lord and that of His Apostles.

      Two such contradictions given by the apparition ” all men are God’s children” and ” all religions is acceptable to God”

      The Late John Paul2 certainly took these contradictions to heart when he assembled and gathered ecumenically with Witch doctors, shiva’s, tibetan monks and a hoard of other reprobate religious leaders to pray for the peace of humanity.

      The Apostle Paul said “man knoweth not the way of peace” God is only Father of those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit made possible by the washing of regeneration through Faith in the precious Blood of Christ Shed in Atonement for Hell bound sinners.

      Jesus said “I am the way no man cometh to the father but by me”. The apparition says all men of all faiths can come.

      Christian believe that the inspired writings of the bible is the Final authority concerning the matters pertaining to the Faith established once and for all, Therefore anything that contradicts and opposes the word of God is to be rejected on that basis.
      I do not believe for one moment that the Blessed Mother of the Lord Jesus should be in contradiction to “the Faith” which she practiced among the Apostles and Saints of God.

      Therefore; the question is asked who opposes the truth of God? it is the Liar and the deceiver. The one who comes to Kill, to steal and to destroy. It is the enemy of the souls of men promising a false Gospel message of peace by the agency of an unbiblical Mary.

      John b

    • Bobby C said

      John b
      where did you find the 2 quotes by the apparition saying “all men are God’s children” and “all religions are acceptable to God”, I was writing a piece on those statements and could not find a 2nd source I would appreciate your assistance thanks!

    • pilgrim said

      Bobby… the first quote, I cannot find. The second quote is a misquote from a conversation between one of the visionaries and the Virgin Mary. It is often bandied around in an attempt to “prove” the falsity of the apparitions, but the truth is that the words John B and yourself have posted where never transmitted by Our Lady. I can supply A source that I use for my own reference. The original source is one of the visionaries.

      Many of the “conversations” of that time were passed by word of mouth, and translated from the original Croatian language. Consequently not all words accredited to the Virgin Mary in the early days of the apparitions can be trusted as accurate. Many people who passed these messages on had their own agenda, often missing out vital words that changed the sense. Those that were recorded or written down when the conversation took place were kept at the parish office. Much of the early material was removed by the communist authorities and destroyed.

      However, on March 1, 1984, Our Lady began giving messages to the world through one seer in particular, Marija Pavlovic. These and all messages to the world via Marija have been documented and kept by the parish authorities at Medjugorje and published on its website.

      Some of the early messages are interesting, even possibly to posters in this section, but I cannot vouch for their accuracy:

      In one early ‘message’ Our Lady says, “Jesus prefers that you address yourselves directly to him, rather than through an intermediary.”

      In answer to a question put to her through a visionary – whether there are other intermediaries, besides Jesus, between God and Man, she replied: “There is only one mediator between God and man, and it is Jesus Christ.”

      In response to a question about Oriental meditations such as Zen and Transcendental, she is reported to have answered: “Why do you call them ‘meditations’, when it deals with human works? The true meditation is a meeting with Jesus. When you discover joy, interior peace, you must know there is only one God, and only one Mediator, Jesus Christ.”

      Finally, Bobby, consider when building a foundation on misquotes, we are only building on sand.

    • john B said

      Bobby, it is not a matter of misquotes, I received the information along with relevant documents when i attended a seminar on the matter. I also heard one male visionary speak in Australia in my home Town relate the same concept. The concept is the Fatherhood of God with the brotherhood of man.
      All people are God’s children that is why the Title “Mother of all Nations” also belongs to this unbiblical Mary.
      That is why all faith’s are acceptable. The ecumenical gesture of the Late pope John Paul2 at Assisi Italy. (see photo on my space site) propagated this anti scriptural position of the Fatherhood of god (a masonic doctrine).

      It was also the same Pope who opened the door of the catholic church to the Masons in ecumenical gesture. A good source of information (in the shoes of the fisherman by D yallop) exposes the Italian masonic Lodge P2, the mafia, and the vatican Elite in financial exploits and Murder. Mary of course has nothing to say about that.

      Pilgrim; I did not ask How many Christ’s there are. I asked Who is Jesus to you? He is Christ to the world, Who is he To you personally?

      Many will come in my name saying I am the Christ and shall deceive many! This is the Word of the lord.

      My Jesus in accord with the revelation of the Holy Spirit Is the One who said He was the Only way to the father.
      Your Jesus according to the revelation of His Mother (an apparition) says there are many ways to the Father. (all religions are acceptable)

      “LET’S GET REAL” for Truth Is That which is real before God and the Authority of His word.

      Mary would not contradict the words of her Son. It is the “spirit of Antichrist which opposes the Father and the Son”. Such is the source of your Revelation. You need to Repent and stop propagating this Marian cult of the pope’s.

      John B.

    • pilgrim said

      John B said… “Mary would not contradict the words of her Son.”

      I concur with that statement John. Hence my red flag on one of the quotes you posted. There are many that choose to put words into Mary’s mouth in an attempt to distort the truth of your statement above. Regretably this is often picked up by others and the lie continues and perpetuates, especially now that we can all post on the internet. So confusion sets in, and we all know who the father of confusion is. his aim is to set people against each other by this way.

      Let us meet and agree on the statement you posted: “Mary would not contradict the words of her Son.” Sharing this belief is good and we know that all goodness comes from God. However, we both understand that we are also arriving from two different faith backgrounds so there will probably always be some areas where our understanding will not be the same.

      I came to this blog simply because of a reference made to Medjugorje and I said what I said. I did not come to prove you wrong in your beliefs, but simply to state my own experience of Medjugorje over the past nine years. I think it has some value to others. I don’t necessarily expect people to accept or take on board what I am presented. But I am sincere with my approach.

      In most cases, I have simply responded to questions or chaallenges put to me, but not all questions.

      I did answer your question relating to Jesus Christ and gave a short response as requested. I am sorry you were not able to understand the answer. But perhaps the Holy Spirit may guide you to the truth contained in my answer.

      I regularly repent of my sins, at least once a month, before a priest. This is the norm in the RCC. I also daily repent each night before I go to sleep.

      As to the rest of your advice, I take no heed. I have no need to. My conscience is clear. But I am saddened when your anger surfaces and if my words are the cause of that I shall wipe the dust off my shoes and move on.

      May God continue to bless you and place his love in your heart.

    • john B said

      Pilgrim; consider the Gospel of Jesus Christ! It is not a “social one” promising universal Peace and the salvation of the world as this apparition does. It is not social justice, Human rights, equality of sexes. To the contrary the gospel “Divides” Lk12:51, separating a “remnant” upon the Earth in the “Simplicity of the Faith” who have a pure wholehearted devotion to Jesus Christ.2Cor11:3-5

      The Apostle Paul said it is “Christ in us the hope of Glory” It is nothing else but that Jesus Is our All.

      The preaching of the Gospel is a “calling of people out of a world already under the sentence of condemnation” 1Cor11:32 It is not about unifying them into one human family in superficial Peace under God. “My peace I give unto you, not as the world Gives” There is never Going to be any Peace Lk12:51.

      The world is in Antichrist Mode advancing at a rapid rate towards the Lake of Fire. Jesus is the “Only way” not to end up there.

      John B

  4. John Owens said

    Thanks for an insightful article. We can see that satan still tries to duplicate the things of God – false signs & healings. Sadly, many do not know their “guidebook” – the Bible. The only sign we should need is “an empty tomb”.

  5. Ernest Gregoire said

    Roger Oakland’s web site has fantastic DVD’s exposing the lie of the Majogorie Mary apparitions as well as the one in Knock, and many other places.

    I highly recommend them!

    http://utt07.apollohosting.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=UTTS&Product_Code=MFHDVD&Category_Code=DVD

  6. Andre said

    Hi Lynn! Do you have a MP3 of last night’s show? Thanks.

    The ALIEN Project

    • lamarzulli said

      Andre – No MP3 of the show yet….
      Carolyn – thanks for the kudos it means a lot.
      Steve MC – thanks for our support

  7. CAROLYN said

    I am so grateful to you for all your warnings to everyone about these lying “signs and wonders” of the enemy. Thank you!!
    And may you and your family have a blessed Christmas!

  8. pilgrim said

    “…I have investigated Medjugorje and have found the thrust of the message to be in contradiction to the written words of The Lord and that of His Apostles.”

    Then what exactly is the “thrust” of the messages of Medjugojre? Highlighting two messages doesn’t give me any sense of the thrust you speak about.

    Tell me more about the thrust of the messages, now that you confess to having investigated Medjugorje, or are you relying on someone else’s investigation and agenda to back up your claimed knowledge of the Medjugorje phenomenon?

    And by the way, you may need to discern or ponder a little more on the old chestnut of no one being able to reach heaven unless through Christ. Do you believe in the Trinity? Do you believe in God’s promise to Abraham? Are you Catholic? Hope you don’t mind the questions. Answers would give me a better idea of your position and understanding of Christ’s love in your heart.

    Thank you for your reply and any further consideration to my questions.

    • john B said

      Pilgrim, I don’t mind the Questions. The thrust of the message is that there will be an extended reign of peace upon the Earth as a result Mary’s intercession and those devoted to Her Call.

      As an Ex catholic of 30 years I have remained in contact with “the Blue Army” devoted followers of Mary. both within traditional Catholicism and the Charismatic renewal.

      I have attended meetings where the messages are discussed. I have heard speakers justifying the authenticity of the phenomenon.

      I believe in the Divinity of Jesus being one with the Father the very word of His Bosom made Flesh dwelling among Men, The Person of the Holy Spirit indwelling the Believer after repentance & Baptism.
      The Atonement by the Blood of Christ as Sole Mediator between God & Man ratifying the promise of the Everlasting covenant made to Abraham that He “Jesus” is the promised Seed in which is the salvation of the sinner both Jew and Gentile by Grace through Faith in that finished Work to which no man can Add to or take away from. Jesus will come again in Glory to Judge all Men Righteously on the Last day on the basis of the works of Faith or the wickedness of Unbelief.

      Every thing which I have said Is Apostolic In context and is Found in The Holy Scriptures.

      As to the Love of Christ in my heart “I love not my Life unto death” is the criteria! I love Him because He First Loved Me, I did not choose Him He Called Me, I acknowledged the calling picked up the Cross and Followed in devotion to Him Alone in A whole hearted purity of Faith and will keep on following unto the End not Trusting in my own efforts but in the power of The Holy Spirit’s work For Sanctification unto the rewards of Glory.

      I left the Roman Catholic Church because of Its incompatibility to the Apostolic Doctrine as revealed in the Scriptures. The Choice was Submission to Scripture The “Very instrument” by Which God Called Me or Submission to the Popes Clerical Hierarchical packaged with all the traditions of men which is inclusive of Mary devotion.

      Again I say, that the Blessed Mother of Jesus who was in “Full fellowship with the Apostles” of our Lord would not contradict their Word. These Apparitions Do contradict the words of The Lord & that of His Apostles.

      john B

    • Gidget said

      Dear Pilgrim,
      I am not catholic but did attend catholic church on occasion as a child with neighbors. I also rode the “Joy Bus” to the Church of Christ as a child all alone as my family did not go to church. I loved Jesus since I was very young and wanted to be near him, so I worshipped however I could get there :)
      I went to a catholic wedding a few years ago and heard a priest say something so odd that I seriously considered cornering him at the reception to ask him to clarify, but chickened out as he did not seem very approachable. He claimed that the “story” in the Garden with Adam and Eve was a “Hebrew Myth”?? So, does the catholic religion teach that only certain scripture is fact and others are just a word picture or symbol to try and relate a message? If yes, then that explains a lot to me regarding this discussion you are having with John B and Ernest. It would then seem they are taking the Bible literally and you are taking a more feel-good make it into what fits your view of God kind of way, dismissing scripture that contradicts your viewpoint and calling them myth?

      But, what I really would like you to clarify and explain, please, are two things you’ve stated in these threads because the way I’m interpreting what you say here causes me concern: “And by the way, you may need to discern or ponder a little more on the OLD CHESTNUT of no one being able to reach heaven unless through Christ” WHAT?? Jesus says “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me.” John 14:6 Are you seriously choosing to call yourself a Christ follower but then contradict Jesus’ own words here? And then this statement “work with the Blessed Mother in HER ROLE OF SALVATION.” Exscuse me but GOD SAVES and I don’t believe that catholics are taught that Mary is part of the trinity of God. Mary’s own words recorded in scripture reflects her “role”: “I am the Lord’s SERVANT, may it be to me as you have said.” Luke 1:38

  9. Lisa said

    It’s sad so many are investigating this particular topic that Lynn generously shares about, and yet, refuse to investigate the pagan traditions of men that have been inculcated into the ‘church’………even to the point of defending Saturnalia (xmas) and the other pagan holidays posing as ‘Christian’ (easter/ashtoreth/semi-ramis – pagan fertility rituals involving killing babies).

    I mean I’m glad people are taking your blog seriously, Lynn – because the abyss WILL be opened soon – and we need to be prepared….but the thing is – we also need to obey God/YHWH and when he cautions us over and over NOT to have anything to do with the vain traditions of men – and tells us we’re supposed to test all things? We need to do just that…..test the spirit – study to show ourselves approved – and repent of whatever the Holy Spirit convicts us of so we’re able to stand before Yeshua when He returns.

    He’s gonna tell many, ‘ Go away, I never knew you’, because they sit proud telling themselves they are okay – without need of anything (sound familiar to anyone?!).

    If your final word is your pastor/priest? You are on dangerous ground people. Yeshua told us we need NO ONE to teach us except the Holy Spirit. One Father – YHWH. ONE teacher – Yeshua through the Holy Spirit.

    I just pray people will take things like this more seriously and seek Him on the matter. They way He began that particular work in me was throwing Jeremiah 10 across my plate over and over until I finally broke down and read it. Jawed dropped. Fell to me knees in repentance and never looked back at the traditions. Now my heart just aches for other brothers and sisters to COME OUT OF BABYLON lest they share in her plagues.

    YHWH bless all who diligently seek Him first in ALL things. And not through another person…but directly;).

  10. Dee said

    I totally agree with Lisa. Every protestant church is just catholic ‘lite’. Still focused on the one man preaching/teaching, still celebrating pagan holidays, still legalistic about worship on sundays.
    Is it any wonder that this Mary deception is happening and now?
    Next she’ll be telling us that her son if coming soon…and people will believe it because they have not ‘come out of her my people and touch no unclean thing and I will recieve you unto myself’. 2 Cor.
    I love my Savior JESUS, but I can’t wait for xmas to be over!

    • Ruby Miller said

      I totally agree with Lisa and Dee, I can’t wait for it to
      be over,it is a pagan holiday. I beleive the Lord is telling
      those who have ears to hear to come out and be seperate.

      Ruby

    • tammy said

      boy are you guys in for a big suprize.

  11. Gordy said

    The following is a link to the video documentary “Messages from Heaven?” It is about deceptive Marian apparitions past and present.

  12. pilgrim said

    “As an Ex catholic of 30 years…”

    John B… I guessed. That’s why I asked the question.

    Your “confession” also reveals to me your misunderstanding about your Blessed Mother in Heaven. When you abandon your Mother in this way, I guess you have to try and pretend she’s not there in the way others understand and accept. Thankfully the Mother never abandons her son or the Body of Christ.

    Our Lady says in one of her Medjugorje messages: “If you knew how much I love you, you would weep with joy.” She is capable of that complete and unconditional love because she is FULL OF GRACE.

    Finally… I sense that your desire to submit to Scripture is not because of the Catholic Church’s teaching on Mary but because of a deeper, maybe personal, reason that you choose not to reveal. I say this because I find it strange that those who leave the Church seldom leave quietly; they rail against the Church. Why should they do this when they have found peace and joy in their new home? Simple answer: They have not found the peace they are seeking outside – maybe even after 30 years.

    Peace and Blessings.

    • Ernest Gregoire said

      Dear Pilgrim

      Your response to John B is typical of Roman Catholic thinking. If we don’t adhere or believe the unbiblical teachings of the RCC, then therefore we don’t understand.

      “Not understanding” is Catholic jargon for elitist thinking that states “If they understood, then they would believe.” It is elitist because this form of thinking dictates that Roman Catholics are smart and the rest are not bright enough to know the difference.

      I understand perfectly! My problem, according to RCC teachings is that I take God and his Word at face value. What audacity!

      The reason that I as an ex-Catholic, have not silently departed but rail against the false teachings of the RCC is to awaken those who might also come out and be separate!

      It is our duty to do so! Christ commands it in the great commission.

      Doing so is not reflective of our peace with and in Christ!

      You err in this assumption!

    • john B said

      I have left the catholic church which is a man made physical organization with the pope as head.
      I have not left the Church of which Jesus is Head.

      I understand the bondage of Catholicism with the “Mary Cult as mother” as is the case with all so called religions imposed upon the young formative mind from birth receiving an indoctrination wherein submission to the the leadership on the basis of Fear is a requirement in order to Get some assurance of salvation.
      All religions are of this form that is why The Popes can justify being Joint with Baal.

      I have conformed to your request and answered your Questions, I now put to you this Question.

      Who is Jesus To You?

      John B

  13. hopeful_watcher said

    Anyone see Google’s latest happy holidays doodle on their home page? A space ship looking over the moon (our moon?) with a peace sign on it. Um… you have got to be kidding me. Also, the Pope gets knocked over at Christmas Eve service. You have to be blind not to see this coming.

  14. lamarzulli said

    Hi Baal – with this kind of Neanderthal response – which I did not post – you’re not welcome here. Take your hate and ignorance somewhere else.

  15. pilgrim said

    “You err in this assumption!”
    Ernest… you admit, as an ex-Catholic, to railing against the teachings of the Catholic Church. Your new-found church has not provided you with the peace that Jesus brings. You are out on a limb and you simply want others to join you to justify your own anger and hurt. It shines through very clearly even in this time of joyous celebration. I see this happen so often.

    You say you take the Word of God at face value, but your own words betray you when you rail against the Catholic Church. You are not prepared as the Farmer said to his workers, to let the tares grow among the wheat until the harvest. And then there is the other warning from Jesus to remember, not to try and remove the splint from another before removing the plank from our own eye.

    Railing against the Catholic Church will not bring you peace or even satisfaction but only play into the hands of the one who will exploit your weakness. Be at peace with yourself, and then you will be at peace with others, whatever their belief.

    Allow me to remind you of the words of St Paul: 1 Corinthians 13 : 1-11

    May the love of God penetrate your heart to heal the hurt you hold.

    • Ernest Gregoire said

      Dear Pilgrim,

      Your armchair psycho analysis is off base and unnecessary, but again typical of RCC rhetoric. My hurt real or imagined will not suffice to get you into heaven. That is my main concern here. I am secure in my final destination, not because of my efforts but because of the finished work of Christ on the cross, (The real Jesus Christ)

      Only a belief in the real Jesus Christ can do that. The little wafer that is made with human hands is not the Jesus Christ of the bible. I’m not talking about a different way to have communion here, but the very essence of who Jesus is.

      Experts on both sides of the issue readily admit that there is a vast chasm of difference between Roman Catholicism and Evangelical Christianity. If one is Christianity, then clearly the other cannot be.

      Things that are different cannot be the same.

    • pilgrim said

      Ernest.. I don’t imagine your hurt. It is clear to see by your jabs at the RCC. You are not content as you claim to be in peace of Christ. If you were you would not have need to lash out. Only someone in pain does this. Only someone who is unable to turn the other cheek does this. Only someone who is unable to forgive does this. Only someone desperate for inner peace does this. Only someone unable to reconcile his life does this. Jesus does not wound. He is the healer, not the antagonist, not the one seeking excuses to attack the beliefs of others to justify himself.

      Your logic is not of the Holy Spirit but simply human thinking. Of course things that are different can be the same. Each of is unique in God’s creation, but his love for each of us is the same. This makes us the same in the eyes of God. Loved by Christ, although most of us struggle to return his love to each other. Now that does make a difference.

      Is it necessary for any Christian outside of the RCC to ridicule the belief of any Catholic’s attachment to the Blessed Virgin or even their belief of the True Presence in the consecrated Host. Most who choose not to accept the teachings of the RCC choose to leave. But why do they throw stones after departing. Why do they behave live the men who sought to stone the adulteress, yet fail to see the error of their own ways?

      Such is their zeal, their righteousness, they they become blind to the real love of God in their lives. Their hearts are hardened. Compassion is suppressed because compassion is love. They appear on the outside as good, honest men, but inside they are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. Their own evidence, their words, their finger-pointing, their claims of following scripture only tells against them, simply because they fail to put into practise the true meaning of loving their Christian neighbour, banding together in their false pronouncement of the love of God and all the time failing to accept that there are other Christians who are free to choose to work with the Blessed Mother in her role of salvation.

      We should always be on watch for the enemy within. Whatever label we adopt or are given, does not preclude us from falling prey to the temptations we ask our Father to lead us away from.

      It would be better to discuss our own personal shortcomings than attack the faith of others. Faith is a God-given gift. We should not be tempted to sabotage the faith of others. It is an indication that we thinking clearly as to the expectations our Saviour seeks from each of us.

      Peace and blessings.

  16. Late Night Lisa said

    Who’s Baal? (posted as?) I guess this one flew by me.

    My Catholic friend posted this for me since he knows I look into it. He is a true historian so although we disagree on what is behind these appariations the links & info about them is interesting.

    This link is to the second page of a forum in Ireland; the topic is the apparitions supposedly occuring now in Egypt.

    Under: “Multiple apparitions reported in Egypt today”

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=61ffb667871255d9e0a41ca57ffe0f99&t=2055777497

    The crowd is clearly sceptical. But then someone posted the videos and photos. What’s more, there are now reports (which I’m tryng to confirm) that on Dec. 23 apparitions occured at Coptic churches all over Egypt, at the same time. Multiple apparitions. But we’ll get to that in a moment.

    The first video, about a third of the way down the page, shows the apparition occuring during the daytime. (You can find the original video on YouTube.) You may think that it’s just the sun reflecting off the metal of the cross, but there are two problems with that. First, if you run a still of the video through image analysis software, you’ll find that the sun’s reflection off the cross in the background is dimmer than the glowing object in front of the forward cross. Given the angles of the sun and the two crosses relative to the camera, if it was a reflection both the forward and rear crosses would be at about the same brightness, but they’re not. Second, there’s no reflection off the top part of the forward cross. (That “beam of light” is a lens artifact.)

    If you’ll scroll down some more, you’ll find two more photos and another video. The first photo was taken from a nearby apartment building and shows the enormous crowds that come each night. The two crosses on the domes are lit (there’s nothing there normally to light up the crosses — no one can explain how/why the crosses are so bright), and you can see the glowing apparition down between the towers. (Note: so far there have been only photos taken by cell phones and the like, which don’t handle contrast very well. All we see in the photos and videos is a glowing object. The eyewitnesses all describe the same thing: a woman dressed in white with a blue mantle and blue sash or belt.)

    The second photo shows a group of luminous doves flying in formation over the church. Some people call them doves, others describe them as pidgeons; either way, neither of those birds are nocturnal.

    The last video is the strangest.

    You can see a larger version on YouTube; however, all the notes and annotations are in Arabic. Remember I said “Multiple apparitions”? What I mean is, not only are the apparitions taking place all over Egypt at the same time, they are also involving different people.

    At the beginning of this video, you’ll see a note pointing to a figure standing in front of the church at crowd level. Watch that person. From 0:00 to 0:03, he is standing there. Between 0:03 and 0:04, he evaporates. Some witnesses claim that he was John the Baptist. I’m still trying to get confirmation of any of this.

    (NOW THAT WAS BIZARRE! If this isn’t some hoaxed thing it reminded me of MATREYA)

  17. Late Night Lisa said

    Here is page 2 of the same thread w/the “doves”- (look more like what I would think of as flying spirits to me) & a terrific picture of all the people swarming around the glowing crosses.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055777497&page=2

  18. Dee said

    Dear Pilgrim,
    I don’t percieve John as railing persay agains the RCC. As an ex RCC, myself, I have several friends who are still in the RCC. I pretty much figure the LORD through the HOLY SPIRIT, will tell them what they need to know. I don’t have any ‘anger issues’ with the RCC. It with all the protestant churches are just religous. I believe knowing the LORD has to do with where your heart is. If you are bent by fear of man, then you will probably stay religous (no matter what denomination you are in). I made a statement on http://www.lookupfellowship.com : “Catholics are Jews who go all the way”. Think about that for a bit. JESUS sacrificed Himself once for all.

    • pilgrim said

      “I don’t percieve John as railing persay agains the RCC.”
      Neither do I simply because if he did he would be arguing against his own claims of being Christian. As an ex-Catholic, he also probably knows that RC’s are not bound to believe in any Marian apparition, be it Lourdes, Fatima, Guadalupe, Knock, etc.

      I was interested to read his opinion on what he considered to be thrust of Our Lady’s message from Medjugorje: John said: “The thrust of the message is that there will be an extended reign of peace upon the Earth as a result Mary’s intercession and those devoted to Her Call.”

      This tells me that he has not really given serious study to the messages at all. If he had, he would also recognise that the messages echo Scripture. Why shouldn’t they? If the Blessed Virgin gives birth to the Word of God, will she not also, as Mother of God, speak the Word of God. She cannot do anything else but this.

      Now John with his Catholic background will also probably know from Canon Law that the RC Church is bound by its own law to warn the faithful of anything that could be seen as a danger to the faith and morals of the faithful. So in 28 years, and after hundreds of messages, the Church has still not spoken out against any Medjugorje message. Simple reason for this is that it cannot, because her messages to the world contain nothing outside of Scripture.

      Our Lady has not come for herself, but to point the way to Jesus. She, like the Baptist is a prophet: “Yes, from this day forward all generations will call me blessed.” Luke 1 : 48

      Her first message to the world, on the third day of her apparitions in Medjugorje was: Peace, peace, peace, Only peace. Reconcile with God and with each other. SImply the call of the prophet.

      The thrust of her messages from Medjugorje are a call to peace, through prayer, fasting, good works and reconciliation and daily conversion. If, as a result of this, some discover the peace of God in their hearts, then the world will indeed be a better place.

      Regrettably, there are some, because of their distaste of Catholic attention towards Mary, tend to shut their ears and hearts to the truth of her role in saving souls. It’s a pity because she is a wonderful intercessor with her Son, Jesus. She has his ear. He listens. His heart is moved. Are not all sons moved by the pleas of their mother – and if not, why not?

      peace and blessings

  19. Doug said

    With the Coptic church light show, I am reminded of the 1960s British film,”Quatermass and the Pit”. It looks similar to the Martian spirits shining around. They had a very strong effect on the people as well.
    To Add…….
    I Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

    Matt. 10:34-36 “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth;
    I came not to send peace but a sword.
    For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother….
    And a man’s foes shall be of his own household.”

    Colossians 1:17-20 “And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have preeminence.
    For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell.
    And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him,I say whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”

    …..there’s no mention of Mary.

    • pilgrim said

      Of course, there is not mention of Mary, Doug, but just because you have chosen passages that do not mention her does not mean that she is not mentioned in Scripture. Not an argument. False reasoning.

      “I come not to send peace but a sword – yet in the next passage you quote the words” And, having made peace through the cross… A contradiction, surely?

      Surely you know the difference between what the world offers as peace and the peace that comes from Jesus. The two are not the same. There is no war in the heart of Jesus, the King of Peace, as his Blessed Mother described him in her Christmas message to the world yesterday. Here is the full message:

      Dear children! On this joyful day, I bring all of you before my Son, the King of Peace, that he may give you his peace and blessing. Little children, in love share that peace and blessing with others. Thank you for having responded to my call. December 25, 2009

      Nothing unscriptural about this message, is there?

  20. Late Night Lisa said

    Matthew 7:13-14
    Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    “Only “few” find this road and gate, not because it is obscure or hidden, but because only a few really care to seek it.”

    (How true this is!)

    Pilgrim- someday you’re going to be in for a real big shocker when you find out these apparitions are demonic entities posing as “angels of light”.

    I hope you remember what we study here & someday you’ll have a chance to depend solely upon Christ alone. He won’t let you down but these deceiving sprits are about to- no matter how smooth & flattering their words may have been or will become.

    The God described by the Catholics is not the same one we worship. Our Biblical God feels that these demonic apparitions, false traditions of men, and this “Queen of Heaven” are a complete abomination.

    This is the true issue at hand. We are not all believing in the same God or following the same Christ. The Christians true to their Biblical faith are not about to compromise their beliefs one iota & will keep sounding the alarm & warning others of these imposters- including all that claim to be “our Lady”. Her deceptive cries of “Peace” have no real attraction to those who already have put their trust in the Lord & rest in the peace He provides to His own though the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

    As far as worldwide Peace we already know what God has to say about that : 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 “For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night,
    For when they say ‘peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape”.

    1 Tim 4:1 (NIV) The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

    2 Thes 2:11-12 (Phi) God sends upon them, therefore, the full force of evil’s delusion, so that they put their faith in an utter fraud and meet the inevitable judgment of all who have refused to believe the truth and who have made evil their pleasure.

    Luke 21:8 (KJV) … “Take heed that ye be not deceived; for many shall come in my name…”

    As for the shepherds fleecing the flocks & the sheep under their care- don’t give up hope:

    Eze 34:7-16 (NRS) “‘Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, therefore, O shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them. For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them… I myself will tend my sheep and make them lie down, declares the Sovereign Lord. I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.'”

    • pilgrim said

      “I hope you remember what we study here & someday you’ll have a chance to depend solely upon Christ alone.”

      You assume that I do not depend on my God. But if I choose Mary as an intercessor, this does not exclude my dependence on God. Perhaps you misunderstand the role of Mary in saving souls. Do you not pray to God for others, or do you just pray for your own salvation? Have you never asked someone to pray for you? Or if someone offers to pray for you, do you say, “Please don’t”?

      As to your random scripture quotes I don’t really understand what point you are trying to make with these.

      peace and blessings

  21. Doug said

    The word says we are to come boldly before the throne of Grace. We have no need of a human intercessor.
    As the verse I quoted to you above, we have Christ and He alone as our mediator.

    I see no scripture that puts Mary in this position and it is purely a human invention.

    • pilgrim said

      Doug, I think you misunderstand what intercessory prayer is.

      So I put the same question to you as I did to Lisa

      Do you not pray to God for others, or do you just pray for your own salvation? Have you never asked someone to pray for you? Or if someone offers to pray for you, do you say, “Please don’t”?

      Mary, as Mother of all God’s children, continually intercedes to God for her children. This is not unusual. Which Mother that believes in God does not pray for her children’s needs? I am sure all the Christian mothers that you know pray for the needs not just of their own children but for the children of other mothers. This is all very natural. Jesus said to the daughters of Jerusalem: “Weep not for me, but for yourselves and your children.” (Luke 23 : 28)

      Scripture provides many examples of intercessory prayer.

      The prophet Samuel said: “I will plead with Yaweh for you.” (1 Samuel 7 : 5)

      The king said to the man of God, “I beg you to placate Yaweh your God, and so restore me the use of my hand.” (1 KIngs 13 : 6)

      “Pray to the Lord for me yourselves” Simon replied, “so that none of the things you have spoken about may happen to me.” (Acts 8 : 24)

      St Paul said in Romans 15 : 30-33, “I beg you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of the Spirit, to help me through my dangers by praying for me. Pray that I may escape the unbelievers in Judaea, and that the aid I carry to Jerusalem may be accepted by the saints..”

      peace, blessings and prayers…

    • Gidget said

      “but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent PRIESTHOOD. Therefore he is ABLE TO SAVE COMPLETELY those who come to God THROUGH HIM, because he ALWAYS LIVES to INTERCEDE for them.” Hebrews 7:24-25

      Jesus is our high priest who LIVES to intercede for us – woohoo! Scripture makes it clear that we direct our prayers to the authority of the trinity of God, not to any human, including Mary, who was no doubt a faithful and willing servant who obviously loved the Lord or she wouldn’t have been chosen to carry God in her womb. Never in scripture are we to pray to even those who are considered righteous like Abraham, David or Paul – only to God.

      All Christ followers pray for the needs of others. I’m not sure what your point is regarding this. Maybe that we are “interceding” for other people? There is a huge canyon difference between lifting up prayers for others and WHO we’re directing our prayers to.

  22. Doug said

    Then all who pray for others are as important as Mary, as they all would be intercessors; including you and I.

    Unless you are placing her in a position of deity like the Holy spirit who is the one named who makes intercession for us.

    Of course, she wasn’t divine. Nowhere in scripture does it imply it, much less say it.
    Mary had a sin nature as we all do. She had to come to Christ for her salvation as we all need to do. She had to confess her sins as do all believers.

    • pilgrim said

      Neither I or the RCC claim that Mary is Divine.

      The RCC teaches that Mary was born without the stain of original sin which we have inherited from out first parents, Adam and Eve.

      To be fully human is to be without sin, as God intended our first parents to be.

      Mary was fully human, but she was not Divine. Jesus was fully human and is Divine.

      You say: “Of course, she wasn’t divine. Nowhere in scripture does it imply it, much less say it. Mary had a sin nature as we all do.”

      And I will use your own reasoning to answer: Nowhere in Scripture does it imply, much less say that she had the nature of sin. And again, using your own reasoning: Where does it say in Scripture that she had to confess her sins?

      Mary was addressed by the angel Gabriel as “highly favoured” (some translations state “full of grace”). If she if full of grace, then how is she a sinner?

      Should we imply that she was not full of grace when she conceived by the Holy Spirit? To do so would be to say that by her co-operatiopn in the Word becoming flesh, incarnate, she was not graced to do so.

      Of course, Mary’s role is important, but in her humility she calls herself a handmaid of the Lord. Her role was important for our salvation in that she had to say “yes’ to be the Mother of God. “Let what you have said be done to me.” (Luke : 1 : 38). She made this decision of her own volition, to serve the Lord in this way and co-operate with his plan of redemption for the world. This is why she is important in the eyes of many.

      Some do not see her role as important and prefer to reduce the value of her example of saying “yes” to the Lord.

      If only the world could learn from her humility and say “yes” to the Lord.

      But we also know that our own role in life is important, that we are here to serve the Lord and co-operate in God’s saving plan. Jesus is happy with his Mother. God chose her to bear his only Son. If Jesus is happy with Mary, then so am I, and I acknowledge her in as many ways as I can.

      I can only repeat the words of Mary’s cousin, Elizabeth: “Why should I be so honoured with a visit from the mother of my Lord?” (Luke 1 : 44)

      It was Elizabeth who said: “Of all women, you are the most blessed!” (Luke 1 : 42) That piece of Scripture reveals to me that Mary is a very important woman.

    • Late Night Lisa said

      Pilgrim,

      Do you not know the context of the random scripture quotes? What do those quotes mean? How could they tie into false apparitions?

      This will give you the answer.

      How well have you studied God’s word alone- apart from the teachings of the RCC? Have you honestly set your preconceived ideas aside & solely relied upon God though His Holy Spirit to find truth?

      We are not both right here but lets be humble enough to admit we don’t hold all the answers either.

      You have Christians here which have a strong love & burden for people of Catholic faith. It just may be that we are privy to info that you do not realize yet.

      To think that Mary is up in heaven interceding for souls is purely speculation. The Bible does not tell us that so we should not assume it to be true. Even if she was- why make such a big deal out of it?

      There is one mediator between God & man and that is Jesus Christ. To say that any other has the same role is a disgrace to Christ.

      1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;..”

      We are “onto” what these apparitions are saying & it points people to place trust in Mary. It is Christ’s shed blood alone which saves souls.

      Mary is blessed, God chose her to conceive Jesus but no where does the Bible say that she was sinless. That is another complete assumption. If she was sinless then she could have died on the Cross & we wouldn’t have even needed God to come on our behalf. Mary is not excluded from sin in the scripture.

      “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” Romans 3:23

      “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:” Romans 3:10

      “They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” Romans 3:12

      “But the scripture hath concluded all under sin…” Galatians 3:22

      “For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.” Ecclesiastes 7:20

      “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” Romans 5:12

      The RCC places her on a pedestal & to tell you the truth it is beyond offensive. All worship, adoration, and trust should be placed in God alone though His son Jesus.

      He came to humbly serve, die, rise again, conquer death & satan & sit at the right hand of God. Nowhere in the Bible does it say Mary sits beside him or at God’s left hand.

      Jesus is the only one who deserves our trust & praise. He has earned our utmost respect & love.

      To take your complete focus off of Him and place a portion of it on His fleshly mother is idolatry plain and simple.

      She needed a savior just as we do.

      “And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.” Luke 1:46-47

      Jesus Himself refused to exhalt her:

      Mary asked to see Him one day & this is what He said:

      “Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

      For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.” Matthew 12:48-50

      Look at how Jesus responded when someone came to exhalt her:

      “… a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.” Luke 11:27-28

      And to top it off Mary is not the “Mother of God Himself” as one would think of in human terms. Christ has always been & is pre-existent- eternal. Mary was used as a vessel for God to become flesh in order to be a perfect sacrifice & save those who would place their trust in Him.

      Exactly how her DNA was passed onto Jesus human body & yet was born without a sin nature we do not know. But he eventually became sin for our salvation.

      “For he hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” 2 Corinthians 5:21

      Give credit where it is due- To Christ alone & start testing the spirits to see whether they line up with God’s word or not.

      If you don’t- I’m afraid you may end up in the group God eventually sends a strong delusion upon & you don’t want to be on the receiving end of a curse from the LORD. 2 Thes 2:11-12

      God desires for all of us to seek Him out. Not only once but throughout our lives. He loves to reveal things to His children when they truly place Him 1st in their hearts.

      Jeremiah 29:13 “And you shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart.”

      If I didn’t have love for Catholics I wouldn’t spend the time or bother discussing these things. (Frankly it’s easier just to keep quiet.)

      There is a book called “Is This The Mary of the Bible?”, by Dan Corner. He covers every single claim the RCC makes about her. If you honestly want to search out truth then you will at least read & consider what he has to say.

      “As a former Catholic who in times past prayed the Rosary and wore the Brown Scapular, it is my sincere prayer that all Catholics will carefully examine this book. In it you will read: (1) The present-day official position of Catholicism on Mary and (2) What the Bible says about this. This book is not an attack on the Mary of the Bible. Please remember this important fact. Instead you are being shown that the Mary of the Bible is not the Mary of Catholicism. They are two totally different people, though each share some common characteristics.”

    • pilgrim said

      Lisa… you say:

      I’m afraid you may end up in the group God eventually sends a strong delusion upon & you don’t want to be on the receiving end of a curse from the LORD. 2 Thes 2:11-12

      I say: Do not be afraid. The Lord says: Do not be afraid.

      I am not afraid because I have been blessed with the peace of the Lord.

      I am not cursed by God. I am loved by God. My God loves me so much that he sent his Son to redeem me. This is not a curse, but a blessing, the most perfect gift of love.

      I know God’s love. His love has given me the peace that comes from God.

      And he has also blessed me with the love of our heavenly Mother. What a joy to be loved by the Mother of Jesus, the Mother of God, Virgin most pure, Queen of the Angels, Ark of the Covenant, Dwelling place for God, Immaculate Mother, Queen of Peace.

      Praise God!

      I am showered with gifts of love each and every day.

      I am shown miracles every day.

      Am I content in my belief in Mary as a my Mother, the Mother of my Lord? Amen!

      I am truly blessed. Thank God for Mary. Praise him for the gift of Mary!

      Lisa – or is it Elizabeth? – may I suggest you spend a day pondering on the words of Mary’s cousin Elizabeth: “Why should I be so honoured with a visit from the mother of my Lord?” (Luke 1 : 44)

      Open your door. Allow her to enter your heart. She brings Jesus with her. She proclaims the greatness of God. Welcome her and be blessed by Jesus for doing so. She knows more about Jesus than any of us. She will reveal him to you in so many ways that you probably have never understood. Who knows a son better than his mother? She desires that you come to know him better, to prepare you for the time when you will come face to face with Jesus.

      She is a daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son, and Spouse of the Holy Spirit. What a wonderful and special relationship she has with our Trinitarian God.

    • pilgrim said

      Apologies for the italicised post. I hope it doesn’t make reading too difficult.

  23. Doug said

    Well said Lisa. I concur and your verses say it plain and simple.

    I love the Catholics. I have friends who are catholic. I also have friends who have come out of the RCC. They did this because they read and studied God’s holy word and were born again by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

    What you say pilgrim, sounds to me that you place importance on Mary’s current position. It also sounds very much like it takes away from Christ’s position….even a little bit.

    Anything that does that is of Satan. Satan and human reasoning; clearly when you test it along side of the word of God.

    Many religions want to denegrate Christ and His finished work on the cross in some fashion and they come from all points of the compass.

    But it is clear where this comes from. The throne of Satan.

    As Lisa quoted in the verses, Mary needed a Savior. By her own acknowledment, she recognized her sin and need of salvation.

    • pilgrim said

      Doug said…
      What you say pilgrim, sounds to me that you place importance on Mary’s current position. It also sounds very much like it takes away from Christ’s position….even a little bit.

      Rest, assured, Doug… I always place God in first place. So does his Mother.

      Her are two of her Medjugorje messages which make very clear her call to put God in first place.

      Dear children! I invite you to decide again to love God above all else. In this time when due to the spirit of consumerism one forgets what it means to love and to cherish true values, I invite you again, little children, to put God in the first place in your life. Do not let satan attract you through material things but, little children, decide for God who is freedom and love. Choose life and not death of the soul, little children, and in this time when you meditate upon the suffering and death of Jesus I invite you to decide for life which blossomed through the Resurrection, and that your life may be renewed today through conversion that shall lead you to eternal life. Thank you for having responded to my call. March 25, 1996

      Dear children! Also today I rejoice with you and I call you to the good. I desire that each of you reflect and carry peace in your heart and say: ‘I want to put God in the first place in my life.’ In this way, little children, each of you will become holy. Little children, tell everyone, I want the good for you and he will respond with the good and, little children, good will come to dwell in the heart of each man. Little children, tonight I bring to you the good of my Son who gave His life to save you. That is why, little children, rejoice and extend your hands to Jesus who is only good. Thank you for having responded to my call. Message of December 25, 1997
      Peace and blessings…

    • pilgrim said

      Doug and Lisa said:

      Mary needed a Savior. By her own acknowledment, she recognized her sin and need of salvation.

      Yes, the RCC also states that Mary was in need of redemption. But it was effected in another manner, which I presume you are both aware of.

      The Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary was solemnly defined and proclaimed by Pope Pius IX on the 8th December, 1854: “The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.”

    • lamarzulli said

      Pilgrim – therein lies the problem that we have with Mary. The Pope pronounces this almost 1800 years late and he can’t find one scripture to back it up. It truly is the fables of men that lead many astray. This is why there was a reformation in the first place. The teaching of men had usurped what was written in the Guidebook, i.e. the Bible.

  24. pilgrim said

    The truth of the Immaculate Conception is within Scripture. But some are unable to see this. Jesus said, “Those outside… may see and see again, but not perceive; may hear and hear again, but not understand, otherwise they might be converted and be forgiven.” (Mark 4 : 12)

    I sorry to read that you have a problem with Mary, because she has no problem with you. We are all her children, brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.

    When I meet with Jesus I find it difficult to ignore his Mother, especially at the foot of the Cross. I am glad Jesus gave her to me as my Mother when he spoke from the Cross, the mother revealed by John in Revelation, the woman the dragon was enraged with and went away to make war on the rest of her children.

    I am glad that we have this Mother to guide us and offer her protection. She is only doing what she did with Jesus, guiding and protecting him when a child, and even when he came of age he still submitted to her authority as Mother. (Luke 2 : 51)

    Ask and you shall receive, said Jesus. So I ask Jesus to continue giving me his Mother to guide me to him, to help me keep on the path of holiness. And he has blessed me in doing this.

  25. Doug said

    Therein lies the problem I believe, Pilgrim. You are looking through eyes that believe human proclamations. Humans are sinful and make errors.
    The scriptures make it very clear that Christ is the only way to salvation and that He needs no help to carry out the redemption of mankind.
    I think your church doctrines do support a role for Mary in the salvation process and I am afraid what you say about her in your post above is antiBiblical and is dangerous.
    I am praying that you will see the truth and by searching the scriptures in all areas yourself, you will come to see Jesus Christ as who He is and that there are no others of the human race who are or were without sin.
    Men can proclaim all they want to. But men are carnal and if it doesn’t agree with scripture which is God’s word, their proclamations will be of non effect.

    The Bible says, NO ONE can come to God the Father except through Jesus Christ and him only.

    • pilgrim said

      • Doug, you are starting off the circle again. :)

      I accept your freedom to have an opinion. But what you invite me to do, I invite you to do the same. Your understanding and perspective is different to mine because you are on the outside looking in to the RCC. I am inside, and therefore see things differently.

      • In my opinion. you misunderstand completely the role of Christ when you use the quote of no one coming to God the Father except through Jesus Christ. This is not an exclusion statement but confirmation of the relationship between our Father in heaven and his only Son Jesus, and that they share the same Spirit. This statement is confirmation of Three Persons in One God. The Holy Spirt does not work exclusively with Christians.

      Jesus often asked the people to LISTEN. He had a reason for this. He knew that not all men, listened to his words. They heard them, repeated them, even proclaimed them but without any true understanding, simply because his words did not reach their hearts. Some applied them as they applied the law, in literal terms, to the letter, but without mercy and love, or allowing the Holy Spirit to guide them.

      • In an earlier post you said: “We have no need of a human intercessor.”

      You now say: “I am praying that you will see the truth…”

      I am glad you are beginning to “listen”. Yes, please pray for my needs.I welcome it, but please when you pray for me, allow God to decide what my needs are at this time in my life. :)

      And I shall continue to pray for your needs as well Doug, and for those who have welcomed me here.

  26. Frank said

    wow, what a trail of arguments…

    My thoughts on Mary, as someone from a quasi-catholic background…

    she was a virgin when she gave birth to Christ. She then had other non divine children, as the Bible does talk about Jesus’ brothers and sisters (not sure where). She then died and likely went to Heaven. now there is no need for her to intercede for us, or appear to us. If the Lord chooses to let her appear, then He can. but we should not be praying to Mary. I used to say the Hail Mary prayer, and realize now that i should not have been praying to mary, but to God in the name of Jesus! Mary played an important role, but that role is finished. Christ never said to pray to her, or ask her for intercession. Intercession is through Christ alone. As Apostle Paul said, if a spirit speaks another Gospel, let them be eternally cursed. If Mary proclaims the gospel, then i will consider listening to what she says, but until then, i will err on the side of cuation….TEST THE SPIRITS!!!!

    And this may be off topic but, it bears mentioning anyways…especially with appartions bleeding statues seem to pop up. See the Templemore Miracles.

    while i do not doubt the enemy’s ability to animate statues to mislead people, there is likely a more mundane explanation, at least with weeping statues. In the early 1900’s in Ireland, someone claimed there was an apparition of Mary, and then statues of her began crying blood. Those statues were later discovered to contain sheep blood and clock mechanisms to cry blood at set times.

    http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume17/issue1/features/?id=113764

    • Frank said

      forgot to mention, I think i have heard mentioned that Mary is referred to as the “Queen of Heaven”. correct me if i am wrong. If this is true, see what Jeremiah 7:18 & 44:17-25 has to say about the “Queen of Heaven”. best to read a bit before and after so you get the context.

  27. pilgrim said

    • Frank said: “She then had other non divine children, as the Bible does talk about Jesus’ brothers and sisters (not sure where).”
    Frank, ever study Hebrew? The language did not contain a word that meant “cousin”. The same word is used for both “brother” and “cousin”. I can call you “brother” but in what sense? Even today the word “brother” is used by groups of society in a non-biological sense.

    • Frank said: She then died and likely went to Heaven. now there is no need for her to intercede for us, or appear to us. .
    I can’t quite grasp your logic on this one, Frank, but are you trying to say that the those in heaven are unable to intercede for souls on earth; that the saints on earth are excluded from any communion with the saints in heaven?

    • Frank said: If the Lord chooses to let her appear, then He can. but we should not be praying to Mary.
    I appreciate that Mary often stayed silent in Scriptures (even in some apparitions), but there are instances quoted when others spoke and communicated with her. What is prayer if not communication between heaven and earth?

    • Frank said: Intercession is through Christ alone.
    Then why did Mary go to Jesus and point out the need of the couple at their wedding feast at Cana? Why do you pray for others? Is this not intercessory prayer? Are you not also going to the Lord on the behalf of others?

    Frank said: If Mary proclaims the gospel, then i will consider listening to what she says…
    Then consider this, Frank: On June 24, 1981, the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to a group of young people in Medjugorje. She said nothing that day. But the date is significant. It is celebrated by the RCC as the Feast of the Nativity of John the Baptist.

    On June 26, the Mother of God gave her first message to the world: She said “Peace, peace, peace. Only peace. Reconcile yourselves with God and each other. For that it is necessary to believe, to pray, to fast, to confess”

    This is proclaiming the Gospel, it is the call of all prophets for the people to repent of their sins and make a straight path for the way of the Lord. There are many other examples of Our Lady echoing the Gospel in her messages from Medjugorje.

    As an aside, I discovered a few years ago that there was an unusual correlation to two dates in 1981: June 21, when the Blessed Mother made her first appearance in Medjugorje, and just 10 days earlier when the feature film “Raiders of the Lost Ark” was first released in the U.S.

    As you probably know, the ‘Ark’ is the Jewish Ark of the Covenant, a ‘house’ for the Holy of Holies. It is also a title attributed to the Blessed Virgin Mary by the RCC.

    The correlation is very interesting. The Spielberg film became the top-grossing film of 1981 and still remains one of the highest-grossing films ever made.

    The story is built on a group of Nazis searching for the Ark of the Covenant in an attempt to make its army invincible.

    Meanwhile, back at Medjugorje, Our Lady is drawing the interest of Communist authorities, who fear an uprising against the state by Catholics whose faith and church is suppressed by the regime.

    We now know that the Communists failed to contain the outbreak of religious awakening when Our Lady appeared. In fact, it signalled the beginning of the end of Communist rule in the Balkans and other neighbour states.

    But Our Lady at Medjugorje did not proclaim herself as Ark of the Covenant. She said “I am the Queen of Peace.”

    peace and blessings…

    • Frank said

      Pilgrim, greetings to you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, His peace be upon you.

      OK, long post…..

      good points you have, but i may disagree with you on a couple points. I hope you don’t mind me responding where I disagree, as I have no personal stake, or issue with you. Just a little iron sharpening iron. I do appreciate your intelligence, dedication, passion, and perseverance. If other Christians, including me, had half as much as you the Gospel would have reached everyone alive by now.

      I also do not have an axe to grind against Catholics, but I am highly suspicious of the clergy, for reasons that are not relevant to this course of discussion… anyways, my rebuttal for what it’s worth.

      Bear with me a moment while I set up my thought…A Marian apparition stating: “Peace, peace, peace. Only peace. Reconcile yourselves with God and each other. For that it is necessary to believe, to pray, to fast, to confess” is not necessarily the gospel. The gospel, as I (and most Christieans) understand it is this: Jesus Christ, born of a virgin, God in the flesh came to earth. He lived his life, died upon a cross and rose from the dead, thus fulfilling the old testament. That is the gospel. If a Marian apparition says this, I may believe what she says.

      Now, the most current Medjugorje messages I saw do have some messages that proclaim the Gospel, and say something to the effect of turning to Jesus. I looked here http://www.medjugorje.ws/en/messages/ if there is a better site with her messages, please let me know. Whether or not this is a legit, bonafide, God approved message(s), I cannot say. Even the RCC is on the fence about it, so please forgive my skepticism about the spirit’s veracity.

      I guess what I am getting at is: wouldn’t it still be good idea to test the spirits (like the Bible says) and ask this apparition “Is Jesus Christ the son of God, born of a virgin, died and was resurrected?” If the spirit is truly from God, then that should be easy to get past. If not, then it will leave. In this instance the spirit appears to be proclaiming the gospel, but has anyone ever tested this spirit to be sure?

      OK, now to rebut a bit, in order.

      1) i have not had the pleasure of studying Hebrew. Though from what I understand the New testament was written in Aramaic (is this an offshoot of Hebrew?) and Greek, not plain old Hebrew.

      Whether Christ had brothers that were born of Mary and Joseph or not has no impact upon the Gospel. it does not diminish the Gospel in the slightest if He did, and makes sense, to me, that she would have had other children that were Joseph’s. This point is mostly moot, so let us not dwell here. Neither of us was there, and we can go back and forth on this all day and still end up nowhere.

      2) Here is my logic, for what it is worth. If Mary is in Heaven, she likely has little interest in the affairs of us here on Earth. My understanding is that once we are in Heaven, we will be so awed by the presence of the Lord that we should have no reason to look back. To hear the prayers of mortals or not, our attention will be upon the Lord. I know once I am there, I will be happy to be away from here. Why do we need to commune with the saints there when we are here? The only one in Heaven we need to commune with is the Lord. Not saints, not angels, and not Mary (as blessed as she was in God’s eyes).

      Also, as far as I know the saints in Heaven are quite busy attending to the Lord’s needs. If that means interceding, fine, but that doesn’t mean we need to pray to them. God knows what we need before we do, so why do we need to turn to Mary or the saints when we go through the son, right to the Father?

      3) Prayer as I understand it IS communication between Earth and Heaven, but from US to God. The only way to the father, is through the Son. (this is in all the gospels as far as I know, though I cannot quote chapter and verse). Not through Mary. Jesus is the way, the truth and the light. The only bridge across the gap that divides us mortals from God.
      This also goes back to my opening remark, about testing the spirits.

      4) Because they were in the physical world and needed a physical solution to a physical solution. Mary was likely the first one to notice more wine was needed, for whatever reason she noticed.

      5) see my opening remarks. I am also well acquainted with the works of Mr. Spielberg and Lucas. An interesting connection. Mary should not necessarily be proclaiming herself the Queen of anything as God is the Lord and ultimate authority over ALL. Is she proclaiming herself queen so others will adore her? Or is this the best way to promote the gospel? In other words, for the Apparition’s glory, or God’s?

      Overall, I can see how supernatural assistance may be needed in getting the gospel to such a restricted area, but I am not yet fully decided about the Medjugorje. I need to see more, but even then I still consider the Bible the ultimate authority above any apparition. so the above is my rebuttal and justification for certain viewpoints. if you disagree, maybe we should agree to disagree, but until then i leave you in peace nonetheless.

      thank you also for the chance to think about what i believe and put it into words.

    • Frank said

      PS

      Matthew 6, Jesus Himself (these are RED LETTERS!) instructs us how to pray, as a general framework. all Christians, and particularly RCC should know this one. note that Father is mentioned numerous times, Mary (as important as her role was) is not even mentioned.

      Matthew 6:

      6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

      9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

    • pilgrim said

      Frank said: “Overall, I can see how supernatural assistance may be needed in getting the gospel to such a restricted area, but I am not yet fully decided about the Medjugorje. I need to see more, but even then I still consider the Bible the ultimate authority above any apparition.”

      Why do we need Mary? Why doe we need any prophet? Why does God choose prophets, even those outside of Scripture. They serve His purpose. It’s as simple as that.

      From the outset, Mary was called, in a special and unique way, to serve the purpose of God. Each of us are called to do this, to serve and love God in a way that no other can. I cannot love God in the way you can. Your relationship with God is unique. So is mine. No one can love God in the way that I do.

      I have three children. Each child loves me. But the love of each child is unique. My daughter cannot love in the way either of her two brothers can. Neither can the two brothers love me in the same way. My love relationship with each of them is different but not any less or conditional. They are not clones. Love cannot be cloned. Such is the greatness of God that he can create in this way. There are no counterfeits. The illusion and deceit, the counterfeit love, stems from the father of lies and not the Father of Love.

      I accept that there are prophets outside of Scripture. I also accept that the Blessed Virgin Mary can bring nothing new to the table as outside of the truth to be found in Scripture ( a lifetime of revelation as far as I am concerned. I know so little and God is constantly revealing himself to me through the Word`). But she can bring love, she can confirm. She can come to the aid of her children in need. All mothers come to the aid of their children. Death does not separate love. Our departed loved ones still have a place in our heart. There is no separation between heaven and earth when it comes to love.

      The will of God does not start at death but here on earth. We pray: “Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” The will of God is that we love God and each other. Jesus does not ask us to do anything here on earth that is impossible. It is possible to live the will of God, to love him and our neighbour in the way he wants us to. This is heaven on earth. And when our faith and love reaches such heights, then anything is possible. Even mountains can be moved. Miracles happen.

      And should God choose to present the Blessed Virgin to us in such a way to assist us to discover the love of God in our lives and help us on the path to reach heaven, to help us repent and bring us back to God and his ways, where is the problem? He has always sent his prophets. It is false prophets that Jesus warns us against. Many see Mary as a false prophet. They view her apparitions as the devil in disguise. But I can only say this: Why should satan encourage people to repent and turn to God, which is what happens at Medjugorje.

      Medjugorje is considered the confessional of the world, a place or repentance and prayer. It produces good fruit, the ultimate test introduced by Jesus in Scripture. “Does the tree bear good fruit? Are the signs visible” This is why the RCC has not moved against the phenomenon. It can see the good fruit. It sees people returning to God big-time. I liken Medjugorje to a perpetual Pentecost. I have travelled there over 30 times since my first visit in 2000 when I went ‘kicking and screaming’. I have witnessed numerous healings, especially of the heart. The Holy Spirit, accompanied by Mary, is present in Medjugorje in such a powerful way.

      Of course there are those within the RCC who choose to “test the spirits”, and there are those who will also propagate lies and slander. But, hey, what’s new? It comes with the territory of being a Christian. Jesus did not promise an easy ride. But after 28 years the apparitions continue, Our Lady keeps talking with her children, keeps directing the people back to the path of holiness which leads to Jesus, keeps helping her Son to round up the strayed sheep.

      Finally, let me say, that late in life at Medjugorje, I was blessed with an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, not because I was a good or even a bad person, but because God loves me. I was blessed to be shown this in the most powerful way. I was blessed to be shown that I was a sinner and yet at the same time I felt the arms of God around me in such a way that I never knew love like it. From that moment, all my fears, my hesitations, my uncertainties disappeared. To know the love of God in one’s heart is the most liberating experience ever. At that moment I was the man who had found the the pearl. I was the man who gave up much in my life after that, nothing else was important to me but the love of God, and has been ever since.

      I do my best to bring this knowledge and experience to others, to let them know the power of God’s love for a sinner – especially to men who often struggle in expressing their inner feelings and fears. I do my best to reassure them of God’s love. I invite them to Medjugorje, hand them over to our Blessed Mother and the Holy Spirt and watch with wonder and joy the transformation in these people over the following seven days. After their meeting with Jesus in Medjugorje, they, like the wise men of Scripture, make the decision to change their way. Never have I seen or experienced anything like what is happening at Medjugorje.

      peace and blessings…

    • pilgrim said

      Frank, the website your refer to for the messages coming out of Medjugorje is a good one, simply because they are on database and searchable.

      The official website of the Medjugorje parish has had a recent makeover and its new presentation of all what is happening at Medjugorje is very good. This is the source for all the messages to the world given by Our Lady through the seer Marija Pavlovic-Lunetti. the url is: http://medjugorje.hr/en/

      However, there is one important section missing and that is the commentary that was provided with the messages. This is in accordance with the wishes of the local bishop who does not believe that the apparitions are happening. But this is his personal view and does not represent the official view of the RCC which has not made any judgement either in favour or against.

      The commentaries are still available at the old web address:

      http://medjugorje.hr.nt4.ims.hr/Main.aspx?mv=3&qp=MToxOjE=

  28. john B said

    Pilgrim, You still not answered my Question to you.

    Who is Jesus Christ To You, I only want one answer.

    john B

    • pilgrim said

      John B…

      Is there more than one Christ?

    • hopeful_watcher said

      Your refusal to answer a question but with another question is a bit telling Pilgrim. Is it not? You are deliberately evasive to either provoke agitation or you have issue with a personal relationship with Jesus. I read a lot of words about Mary’s relationship with Jesus from you, but no references about your personal relationship with him.

      The question still stands. Who is Jesus to you?

  29. Frank said

    Pilgrim,

    thanks for the link. the first one didn’t work, but i found it anyways. I’ll take a look.

    • Frank said

      BTW, to anyone still reading….

      Regarding Christ’s literal brothers. i am not proclaiming any expertise here, just an armchair Bible scholar. I checked in my strong’s concordance last night and found in Mark 6 what it says.

      Mark 6:3

      Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?

      in my concordance it said that the word here for brother was the greek word Adelphos or delphys which can mean literal brother or can mean kind of like country men. it wasn’t terribly definitive, but my opinion is that it means more likely literal brother. Especially in light of the fact that it gives several specific names. Maybe i am wrong but if i am saying brothers and mean just fellow (wo)men i would not name some specifically. if i were to write about a person and say “their brothers, tom, and steve” i would probably mean that person’s literal brother.

      i am not trying to rekindle the disagreement with pilgrim, just throwing more evidence out there so we can all make an informed decision. i obviously have my bias, but would encourage everyone to be like the Bereans and check it out.

    • Frank said

      I doubt anyone is still reading this one. I have been checking out Pilgrim’s link to the Medjugorje. I have to say that most of these messages sound kind of new agey, and also seem to try placing glory and worship onto the apparition.

      There are a few spots that mention Christ, and “my Son” but nothing yet that emphasizes His death AND resurrection. Even in spots where Christ is mentioned, the spirit tries to place themselves on close to, or above equal footing with Jesus. to me a clear sign of a demon.

      There are a couple that are in line with the gospel, but none of them are 100% (which if it’s not 100% right it is not from God), not only that but these are often found with a message that diminishes Christ.

      This leads me to one question: If this spirit at medjugorje is truly of God, and is going to all this trouble to regularly appear to people and bring them messages; why does it never mention that Christ paid the penalty for our sin through His death and resurrection? it mentions Jesus as Mary’s son, and sometime His suffering, but not the redemption.

      anyways, more coming later.

    • pilgrim said

      Frank wrote: “…why does it never mention that Christ paid the penalty for our sin through His death and resurrection?”

      Frank, you expressed a welcoming approach to me earlier on, so it is only right that I respond to your question. But this will be my final post as I sense that my posts are not welcome and disturb some of you. And thank you again for your patience.

      I’m glad you have started browsing through the messages. But like the Gospel, they are not there as a source to “prove” anything, but to be lived, just as the Gospel is to be lived; nor as a reference just to score points.

      And even if you did find a reference in the messages that answered your question, would that convince you of the validity of the messages or even the apparitions? I don’t think so. You would require more to be convinced.

      “Browsing” the messages is not the intention of Our Lady when she gives them. When someone browses quickly without due reference or guidance then the likelihood is that they will miss what they are looking for. I have this problem with Mike B who cannot understand the answer I gave to his question. I know the reason why, even if he doesn’t at this stage, but perhaps in time he will be graced to understand my response.

      Someone else contacted me today and could not accept that I answered a question with a question. Yet the person would claim that their knowledge of God is Scripture based. But if it was then they would know that Jesus often answered a question with a question. It is a legitimate way of answering. And when I don’t answer, I get accused of evasion.

      But here is my kindness to you, Frank, just so you don’t make the same mistake again and start basing your facts on something that is not factual (how often does this happen?) here is a message that answers your question, should you wish to accept it.

      Dear Children, As I look at you, my heart seizes with pain. Where are you going my children? Have you sunk so deeply into sin that you do not know how to stop yourselves? You justify yourselves with sin and live according to it. Kneel down beneath the Cross and look at my Son. He conquered sin and died so that you, my children, may live. Permit me to help you not to die but to live with my Son forever. Thank you! (October 2, 2009)

      No direct mention of the Resurrection but that does not negate the truth. “He conquered sin” . And we know how. But there are mentions of the Resurrection in the Medjugorje messages. Here’s a clue to find them. Check the messages around Easter time.

      But we know also that the other Mary was slow to recognise Jesus at that time, simply because she wasn’t expecting to see him alive. It wasn’t until he spoke to her heart that recognition and understanding came. An open heart, like the open entrance to the tomb. like the open cave of the Nativity, is important if we are to truly meet with Jesus. Closed hearts can cause blindness, and then we are in danger of failing to see the Jesus in others. We can claim to be right and righteous, but if we fail to love in the process then we are simply a gong booming or a cymbal clashing.

      But, hey I don’t need to tell you guys these things. You know all this already. But I guess there will always be some who style of evangelising feels like a smack in the mouth, such is their zeal to change the world but not themselves.

      Frank… Our Lady’s messages will not harm you. You will discover an inner peace should you choose to take them on board. They complement the Gospel. You will begin to see that the more you read them alongside scripture.

      I keep you all in prayer.

    • SANDRA said

      Frank, Ive not commented but Ive been keeping up with this debate. Im not catholic and dont know alot about it so Ive just read and not commented, but Ive got to agree with you, it all sounds vague and new age to me. Not to try to offend anyone, but it sort of creeps me out. the part that is quoted as to let Mary help us not to die, but live with her son forever… I didnt need Mary to obtain my salvation in Christ, all I needed was him. I think its strange… I dont know the right words, but I dont think its right.

  30. Frank said

    Pilgrim,

    thanks also for your patience and responses. I’m glad we’ve been able to keep it civilised. I personally welcome your prescence on this board as we all have a right to our opinions, besides Lynn hasn’t objected yet. we may not agree with each other on everything, but that’s fine.

    one query on the messages, is Mary atually heard and seen by people saying this? or is it specific people operating in a similar capacity as a channeler? i am curious, that is all.

    as to the messages i am reading through every one of them. I am looking mainly for how does this Marian apparation complement the gospel. the selection you chose…

    – Dear Children, As I look at you, my heart seizes with pain. Where are you going my children? Have you sunk so deeply into sin that you do not know how to stop yourselves? You justify yourselves with sin and live according to it. Kneel down beneath the Cross and look at my Son. He conquered sin and died so that you, my children, may live. Permit me to help you not to die but to live with my Son forever. Thank you! (October 2, 2009 –

    does seem to point towards Christ. I have noticed that many of the more recent messages do infact make mention of the gospel. such as the entries from 8-25-08 there is mention of “The Risen One” 1-25-09 says “I will give to you my son Jesus for the salvation of your souls.” There are also numerous messages that state to pray for the Holy Spirit to fill people,

    But for every entry like this that i read, i see many others with red flags, or “gray area”. a red flag message from 7-17-86 has Mary saying ” I am the Mediator between you and God”. obviously we will disagree on this, so let’s not start. it’s just that lines like this make me uncomfortable. There are also numerous points that come up where Mary appears to be asserting herself as nearly equal, or higher than Christ. this is my perception.

    I will read through them all and try to come to some conclusion. I am doing so with an open mind, with a “test the spirits” mentality. I think at best it’s going to be inconclusive. Once i finish i’d like to see what others think. Due to the ambiguity (for us!) of the origin of these messages i am finding it confusing.

    Anyways Pilgrim, i think for now, lets agree to disagree on this, but keep posting on other topics. this group here is pretty cool, and it’s not many places one can talk about some of this crazy stuff with other Christians. If you proclaim yourself a true Christian, I am not the one to judge you.

    Obviously, if any of us are truly wrong with what we say, then we need to be open to correction. if I say something wrong, I am open to Biblical correction as needed.

    anyways, peace and don’t let this be your last post.

    Frank

    • Frank said

      last word to Pilgrim for now, sorry for so many posts….

      In light of earlier post, i don’t think there would be any harm testing this spirit in the appropriate ways. has anyone done this? it can be easily proven then.

      i understand faith, and obviously through faith some things need not be proven, but we are also called not just to faith, but to be not deceived. (as Thesalonians says)

      anyways, don’t take this negatively, I am just saying what i would like to do if i were there.

      I leave now in peace, and again, don’t think you are not welcome. i just want to point out my issues so we can come to an understanding.

    • pilgrim said

      Frank, I’m not quite sure what you mean exactly by testing the spirit in appropriate ways. Can you be more specific, please?

    • pilgrim said

      Thank you for your warm approach, Frank. It is welcomed, and so I will respond again to you.

      Please understand that I am not seeking to “push” anything onto anyone, but only share my own experiences relating to the Medjugorje phenomenon.

      I can answer your question in this way. The visionaries are not “channelers” or even similar. They see the BVM as we see each other, in a physical sense, in that they can touch her, see her, speak to her, as any of us can with each other. So in this sense the BVM is “physically” present. They describe her, but are limited by their knowledge and capacity of description.

      Should the BVM appear to all six seers together, there would be a consensus as to what the BVM said, although each would have their own way of describing what she said. (Similar to six people witnessing an accident).

      Also the BVM may talk separately to each of the visionaries at the same time and no seer would know what was said to the other unless intended by the BVM.

      However, these days it is very rare for the BVM to appear to two or more seers together. One other thing that often bothers people is when the BVM appears at the same time to different seers in different locations. I suppose, for the human mind, this is hard to get around, but it happens according to the witness of the seers.

      Three of the seers, Vicka, Marija, and Ivan, claim to see Our Lady EVERY day. Two of the remaining seers, Ivanka and Jakov receive an apparition only once a year and on a set date. The sixth seer, Mirjana also has a set date for an annual apparition, but also receives an apparition on the second day of each month. She has been given a specific role by the BVM and that is to pray for “unbelievers”, although Our Lady does not refer to people by this term and instead says “for those who have yet to know the love of God.”

      Sometimes the ‘public’ are present at these apparitions. Sometimes they are “private”.

      The seer Marija is given the responsibility of relaying a monthly message to the world. This is given on the 25th of each month.

      The messages given to the world are translated into several languages. Like any translation, even the Bible, there are sometimes problems with the translations, or uncertainties about the real meaning of a word. The Croatian language does not lend itself always to easy translation into English, or perhaps other language. I think this is why the word “Mediator” can cause difficulties for some. Personally, I would use the word “intercessor”.

      All the visionaries have undergone scientific testing through the 28 period of the apparitions occurring yet no fraudulence of any kind has been discovered by the testers. I understand that sometime in the New Year, the seers will again undergo further scientific testing. I see this testing as a good thing, especially as science develops and new forms of testing and equipment become available.

      One of the seers jokes: “At least I have a piece of paper saying that I am sane!”

      From you position of faith, Frank, I am sure you will find parts of the message that you will be uncomfortable with. Even some Catholics do! But not because of any contradiction to Scripture but because they find the messages challenge their lukewarm faith.

      As I said somewhere else, the messages are there to be lived. They will speak in different ways to different people, just as the Word of God does. It is for each of us to listen with an open ear and heart and let the Word become incarnate in each of us so that we live our lives here on earth serving God and each other in the way he intended.

      peace and blessings…

    • Frank said

      thanks for the explanation.

      to clarify what i mean by testing the spirits.

      in the Bible (i am not sure exactly where.) it gives several ways to ensure a spirit is from God. if someone knows, let me know.

      There is also a book, “The Dark Side of the Supernatural” that gives some questions (i have to find) that one could ask a spirit.

      Lynn may also have some suggestions.

    • lamarzulli said

      Frank – It is found in First John 4:2. It says test the spirits by asking if Jesus came in the flesh. I have BLOGGED about this before and while it may seem sophomoric at first it is a challenge that drives the demons and fallen angels nuts. They can’t answer it. They either add something to their answer or won’t answer at all!

    • Frank said

      Thanks sir! i couldn’t remember where it was.

      don’t know if you’ve checked out the Medjugorje messages, but i can send you what i think once i look through it if you’re interested. i have your email from the last time…

      i am shocked that noone has asked this spirit according to this.

    • pilgrim said

      Frank, I’m not sure if your faith accepts the power of blessed water, Holy Water, as it is called in the RCC. But many Catholics bless themselves with Holy Water as protection from evil.

      This method was used on the third day of the apparitions at Medjugorje as a way of testing the spirit. A witness at the time, Marinko Ivankovic, gave this report:

      The third evening, Our Lady was about 300 metres farther away from the place where she appeared the first two evenings. The children (seers) told me where to go, and besides, I know the hill very well, so I knew how to get there; and we climbed higher on the hill. I had taken the holy water from my house, to sprinkle it around the vision, in order to see what she is: whether Our Lady or a devil. However, when we had climbed the hill, we knelt down, and I gave the Holy Water to Vicka (one of the seers) to sprinkle. She said, “If you are Our Lady, stay with us. If you are not, be gone!”

      The report adds that Our Lady smiled beautifully on them after they had tested her. They understood her smile as indicating her pleasure at having secured their faith in her presence.

      Frank, I present this so that you know that the people there were conscious of testing the spirit. Perhaps not in a way that may be acceptable to you and other posters, but nevertheless the intention is the same.

      peace and blessings…

    • Frank said

      if one is testing spirits, they ought not worry if I find the method of testing acceptable. whether or not Holy Water has power or not, the only acceptable test for spirits comes right from God’s word.

      Hopeful watcher, Though this spirit does say things like read the Bible, and things that “sound Christian” we also get messages that are new agey like:
      ” I invite you to give me your heart so I can change it to be like my heart”

      “I am the Mediatrix(mediator?) between you and God”

      “I want each of you with little self-denials and help yourself to me so I can take you from day to day closer to holiness”

      and many more. As i read the messages, there seem to be more messages that draw attention to the spirit, rather than to Christ. and for every message that looks like it proclaims something Biblical, there’s another line (often in the same message) that draws attention back to this spirit.

      I believe Pilgrim posted a link that has all the messages, they can be translated from croation by use of the google toolbar. there are a few bugs, but overall it seems to work.

      try this and use google to translate.

      http://www.medjugorje.hr/en/medjugorje-phenomenon/our-ladys-messages/?msg=all

      Pilgrim. i admire your passion for what you believe, but due to what i have read of the Medjugorje message, i am going to respectfully disagree with you for the time being. May we meet again on another topic post.

      Peace
      Frank

    • pilgrim said

      Frank, one thing I have mentioned before is that the “spirit” you refer to has physical features. It is not a ghost. It can be seen and identified by the visionaries, even touched or held.

      Many of the “apparitions” are available on video, even posted on YouTube. It is interesting to observe the physical reaction of the visionaries when the ‘apparition’ is before them. They react in a physical way. They kneel, they look up, their lips move, they smile, they weep and their eyes follow the apparition when is ascends and is no longer visible.

      From this we can see that the visionaries respond to a visual presence. They see, they hear, listen and communicate, not just in an interior way, but physically.

      Following his resurrection, Jesus made himself visible to several people until his ascension into heaven. And we see from scripture that the disciples must have followed his ascension in a physical way because they looked to the heavens as he ascended and disappeared.

      And Jesus was not a spirit, a ghost, when he asked Thomas to touch his wounds. He was truly present in a physical sense.

    • Frank said

      I have no doubt the visionaries are encountering something. I do sincerely believe these people are encountering a genuine spiritual entity. i did watch a few youtubes of it, and see that her reactions do look real.

      My concern is, what is the true motive and nature of of this entity. and this is where we will start the argument anew, and hence my desire to disagree. Regardless, if you ever get a chance to let the visionaries know anything, or if you go to the site and see the apparation, just follow the below message from the Bible. ask the spirit, or encourage the visionaries to ask the spirit. I hope you can understand why we are so skeptical here, just as I can see how you could come to believe it based on your faith.

      See below that using Holy Water is likely not a good test of spirits, only the below Biblical advice.

      1 John 4:

      1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

      4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

    • pilgrim said

      Thanks Frank, I think after 28 years of daily apparitions, the “spirit” has been well and truly tested.

      One thing that Our Lady taught the children very early on was to pray the Creed and the Lord’s prayer with her every time she appears. I have yet to know of any fallen angel to pray to the Lord in this way. Have you? And you will see from her messages that Our Lady continually urges people to pray, pray, pray.

      And I know I have already explained that Our Lady does not speak of the world but of heaven and eternal life.

      You must have missed that one!

      peace and blessings

      (excuse the double post. I pressed the wrong reply button)

    • Frank said

      well, praying the Lord’s prayer is definitely an interesting note. where is that documented that they pray the Lord’s Prayer with Mary? That does throw new light on this.

      well. I’ll keep reading.

    • pilgrim said

      June 27, 1981… The visionaries asked Our Lady how should they pray: She responded “Continue to recite the Lord’s Prayer, the Hail Mary and the Glory Be, seven times, but also add the Creed.”

      March 2, 1982… The visionaries reported: “Our Lady began the Lord’s Prayer…

      April 24, 1982…Pray, pray, pray. Say the prayers which have already been requested…

      No date… “Our Lady always says: ‘Praised be Jesus’ when she comes and after giving her message prays the Lord’s Prayer and one Glory Be…”

      In some of the early video footage you can hear the visionaries praying the Lord’s prayer during the apparition. Sometimes this is audible, sometimes inaudible.

      Frank, I’ll try and see if I can dig out any further written references for you relating to the visionaries praying the Lord’s prayer with the BVM

    • pilgrim said

      Thank you, Frank. Check with John B – he knows, according to John 4 : 1-6. John has been trying to test my spirit in this way, and so have others. But there was no need. My posts clearly illustrate where I am coming from.

      But relative to your question re the Medjugorje apparitions, there are many examples in the messages given by the BVM.

      1. She does not speak the language of the world. She calls everyone to God. (the evil one does not call people to God but to himself). Here are some of the “calls” made by the BVM in her messages:
      • I call on you to begin fasting with the heart…
      • I call on you to read the Bible every day in your homes and let it be in a visible place so as always to encourage you to read it and to pray…
      • I call you to the renewal of prayer in your homes…
      • I call you to live the words this week: “I love God!”…
      • I call you to renew prayer in your families…
      • I call you to prayer with the heart, and not just from habit…
      • I call you especially to open your hearts to the Holy Spirit…
      • I call you especially now to advance against satan by means of prayer…
      • I call you to decide completely for God…
      • I call you to open yourselves more to God…
      • I call you, dear children, to pray for the gifts of the Holy Spirit which are necessary for you now in order to be able to give witness to my presence here and to all that I am giving you…
      • I call you always to bring harmony and peace…

      There are many other calls from the BVM which clearly demonstrate that she is not speaking “the language of the world”.

      2. She acknowledges the death and resurrection of her Son, Jesus, as shown in this message.

      Dear children! Also today I call you to personal conversion. You be those who will convert and, with your life, will witness, love, forgive and bring the joy of the Risen One into this world, where my Son died and where people do not feel a need to seek Him and to discover Him in their lives. You adore Him, and may your hope be hope to those hearts who do not have Jesus. Thank you for having responded to my call.(August 25, 2008)

      In another message she states: “He conquered sin and died so that you, my children may live. (part message, October 2, 2009)

      3. She acknowledges the birth of Christ.

      Dear Children! My Son was born. Your Saviour is here with you. What prevents your hearts from receiving him? What is in them that is all false? Purify your hearts through fasting and prayer. Recognise my Son and receive Him. True peace and true love, only He gives them to you. The path to Eternal Life, it is He, my Son! Thank you. (January 2, 2006)

      Dear children! Today when Jesus is born and by His birth brings immeasurable joy, love and peace, I call you, in a special way to say your ‘yes’ to Jesus. Open your hearts so that Jesus enters into them, comes to dwell in them and starts to work through you. Only in this way will you be able to comprehend the true beauty of God’s love, joy and peace. Dear children, rejoice in the birth of Jesus and pray for all those hearts that have not opened to Jesus so that Jesus may enter into each of their hearts and may start working through them – so that every person would be an example of a true person through whom God works. (December 25, 2009)

      4. And for those who choose not to “listen”, she has this to say:

      Dear children! Listen, because I wish to speak to you and to invite you to have more faith and trust in God, who loves you immeasurably. Little children, you do not know how to live in the grace of God, that is why I call you all anew, to carry the word of God in your heart and in thoughts. Little children, place the Sacred Scripture in a visible place in your family, and read and live it. Teach your children, because if you are not an example to them, children depart into godlessness. Reflect and pray and then God will be born in your heart and your heart will be joyous. Thank you for having for responded to my call. (August 25, 1986)

      This is how we can tell the spirit of truth from the spirit of the falsehood. (1 John 4 : 6)

      peace and blessings…

  31. Frank said

    Thanks Sandra, that’s kind of my line of thinking. as my reply to pilgrim said, it’s very convoluted. there are some that seem to procalim Christ, but just as many or more that (to me) seem to be trying to turn attention elsewhere.

    I hope my words have been helpful

    Frank

    • john B said

      Frank, I think the thing to consider in all of this is the thrust of the message of a prolonged period of Peace upon the Earth by “the triumph of the immaculate Heart of Mary”. Not scriptural!

      The other thing to consider is the RC dogma of the (assumption of Mary bodily into heaven and crowned “Queen of Heaven”) this gives force to the apparition does it not? Something never proclaimed By Apostle John with whom Mary had fellowship at Ephesus prior to the Apostle’s exile For Patmos 96AD. Mary had long since passed away.

      I don’t hate Pilgrim or say anything to anyone on this blog out of Hate. “For hatred is as the sin of Murder”.

      I begun all of this by saying to Pilgrim that I have researched the matter, and I have and still do.
      I have tested the spirit in relation to the statements and concepts of this apparition and its influence upon the life of Marian devotees. There is more Devotion and time given to her than to Jesus.

      In the Light of Scripture,it is contradictory regardless of the fact that the name of Jesus is at times mentioned. Jesus said it would be so, “His Name used in conjunction with deceit”. we must remember that it is the Holy Spirit that Has been sent into the world to convict of Sin, Righteousness & Judgment.

      I’ll say it again The blessed Mother Of the Lord would not contradict the Apostles in the practice of the Faith. Apostles of the Lord with whom she Had Full fellowship all of her Life.

      I personally know of Marian devotees, some among them have been proven to prophesy falsely, who still kneel before statues lighting candles, who refuse to consult scripture, who never Praise God in worship, Who Are dependent upon the Church sacraments and not Christ for salvation. Furthermore, It is very,very obvious that the apparition has a stronghold upon the mind of those in submission to It.

      Which Jesus is A relevant Question to ask. Christians know the Jesus Revealed by the Spirit of god.

    • Frank said

      thanks for the thoughts. your point “Jesus said it would be so, “His Name used in conjunction with deceit”.” is especially relevant.

      I, like you, am checking through the messages. I know one does mention what she did at Fatima. so if Fatima is false, this one should be as well. I will still research it and try to come to a final conclusion.

      where Medjugorje gets me is that it sounds so Christian, but then there are many parts that sound new agey.

      anyways, thanks all for sticking with me and Pilgrim this far. It’s been a great discussion, may God lead us all closer to Him for all that has been discussed, and may His Son be Glorified!

      See you all soon

  32. Steve mc said

    Well it certainly has been an interesting discussion, and yes Frank, I think alot of us are still following it.

    Pilgrim, while you seem to be a sincere follower of Christ, your views are different than mine and I respect that, but your very first post to Lynn, I think set the tone for most of your other posts…”I respect your right to hold an opinion even if it is shown not to be infallible”…carries with it the tone of condescension…of pride…and that seems to have been the tone of much of what you had to say if I’m not misreading things. Deception and pride always seem to go together…

  33. hopeful_watcher said

    Other than honor your father and mother, I do not believe I have ever heard the Bible, gospels or Jesus mention Mary as being relevant to our salvation. In my opinion, she is a blessed person of God for she did God’s will by her obedience and raising the Son of God, but beyond that she is irrelevant. That is not a put down… just a fact.

    • pilgrim said

      Hopeful_watcher said: “…but beyond that she is irrelevant”
      In your opinion, but not in your life. If she is relevant to Christ and by the fact that she now shares in the promised glory of God’s promise, she is relevant. God has not dismissed her from Heaven. How can love in anyone’s life not be relevant – even when that love is not returned?

      For those who choose not to love Christ, is Christ’s love any less relevant?

      Paul said, “Love does come to an end… in short, there are three things that last: faith, hope and love; and the greatest of these is love.”

      So Mary’s love is not irrelevant. And to love is a commandment from God, so how can it be irrelevant?

      But I accept that some find it difficult to accept the love of another – even from a mother.

    • hopeful_watcher said

      You twist my words out their context. I said irrelevant to our “salvation” from only one sentence prior. Please tell me how Mary is relevant to our salvation.

    • hopeful_watcher said

      Luke 10:38-42
      [41] “Martha, Martha,” the Lord answered, “you are worried and upset about many things, [42] but only one thing is needed. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.”

      Now HERE is a Mary we should take heed to. This Mary is listening intently at Jesus’s feet. Pilgrim, your heart is kind and in the right place, but I am afraid you distract yourself with too many things that might lead you astray.

    • pilgrim said

      Hopeful_Watcher said: “Please tell me how Mary is relevant to our salvation.”
      I thought I had when I said that the love of May was not irrelevant. Without love there could be no salvation. Therefore love in not irrelevant. It was the love of God that redeemed us. Loves gives life. Hate does no

      As to Mary , the sister of Martha, Mary is a wonderful example of LISTENING to and ACCEPTING the Word. This is prayer, allowing the Word to take root in one’s heart and become incarnate.

      In her messages from Medjugorje the BVM says…

      • By prayer and the reading of Sacred Scripture, may the Holy Spirit, who will renew you, enter into your families. In this way, you will become teachers of the faith in your family. By prayer and your love, the world will set out on a better way and love will begin to rule in the world…
      • Do not forget, little children, to read Sacred Scripture. Put it in a visible place and witness with your life that you believe and live the Word of God…
      • Put Holy Scripture in a visible place in your families, read it, reflect on it and learn how God loves His people…
      • I call you to renew prayer in your families by reading the Sacred Scripture and to experience joy in meeting with God who infinitely loves His creatures…
      • Dear children! Put Sacred Scripture in a visible place in your family and read it. In this way, you will come to know prayer with the heart and your thoughts will be on God. Do not forget that you are passing like a flower in a field, which is visible from afar but disappears in a moment. Little children, leave a sign of goodness and love wherever you pass and God will bless you with an abundance of His blessing. Thank you for having responded to my call.

    • hopeful_watcher said

      Happy new year and God bless you Pilgrim. You quote sweet and honest words from Mary, no doubt, and I do desire for more people to read scripture. Beyond that, I am afraid I will take no additional nuggets of wisdom from Mary. It is your freedom to do so, but I fear that when the end times come there will be many who impersonate Mary to manipulate the masses. The AntiChrist, also, will bring a message of peace, love and world unity to usher in his dominance. So take care and not be fooled, for these are the same qualities you are espousing.

    • pilgrim said

      Thank you for your concern Hopeful_watcher…

      But do not fear… trust in the Lord… he has his plan…

      satan does not preach love… he is incapable of love… his ‘love’ is not sourced from God… his “love” is countefeit… his words are of the world… not of heaven… Mary’s words are from heaven… sourced from her Son Jesus.

      She is blessed among women, highly favoured, full of grace, specially chosen to be the bearer of the Good News… she is incapable of deceit… She bears the Word of God… still does with her messages from Medjugorje… because God’s love is everlasting… but we are free to choose to listen or not… she respects the free will that God has gifted each of us.

    • hopeful_watcher said

      On these last points we very much agree, expect for one fine point. Preaching love and the capacity to love are two very different things. Do not be so sure that Satan will not preach such things. Satan has the ability to tell us a perverted truth. After all, does a magician not physically show you the cards? He must, but its the illusion behind the scenes that deceives. So do not let “what” the AntiChrist says be your only litmus test. Hence the ENTIRE debate amongst this discussion board we are having with you. You must test the spirits who are saying it or else you may be deceived by a lie. Any way, I believe we have exhausted this to the end. I’ll let you have the last word if you like. May God bless you. I can tell you have a lot of spirit within you Pilgrim and I thank you for that.

    • pilgrim said

      Hopeful_watcher… I thought I had covered the “fine point” that you mention by saying that the love of satan is counterfeit. he cannot love. he may attempt to portray love as in the love of the world

      We both know that this is not love, but simply, as you say, an illusion, or as I say, “counterfeit”.

      And thank you for your generous heart in allowing me the “last word”. But as we say in my neck of the woods: “After you…” :)

  34. Gidget said

    Pilgrim,
    When you said your life was changed after seeing this “mary” and that you have travelled back 28 times because of the peace you receive, I assumed that “mary” spoke with you directly. Are you saing that you are receiving messages though these “seers”? And, if yes, you’re just taking their word for it?

    As for me, I’d much rather enjoy my own personal relationship with God directly – made possible through the death and resurrection of Christ alone :)

    This sounds too much like a good friend of mine who believes that angels give her messages in her writings – these occurences began as a child soon after she and her parents witnessed a UFO in the UK. She believes these “angels” when they say they are giving her messages from god, however, they told her to divorce her husband to be with the one true love of her life. Thankfully, I prayed up a storm for God to intervene in that plan and He did so in such a funny way and very Biblical – actually gave her a skin rash all over her body for about 3 days – the exact timeframe she would be away on a business trip with you-know-who! The rash began on the plane there and had vanished on the plane ride home :) She asked me to never pray for her again – hee, hee! But, it kept her from committing adultery – who says God is not at work in our lives – now that’s some intercessory prayer – just trying to lighten things up a bit – but true story!

    When I asked my friend how she knew if these “angels” were from the God of the Bible, she answered that she didn’t really know how to tell, but that she assumed angels meant from God. She had never heard, evidentally, of a fallen angel because she had no church experience whatsoever. I asked her if she had ever read the Bible considering she is well-read, she admitted no. I told her that angels of God always point people to a relationship with Him and to know Him best would be to read his love letter to us, the Bible – she is very logical and thought that was good advice, although she’s not done so. In fact, I advised her to ask who Jesus is to these “angels” and see what they say. She never got back to me, but one of my children said that one of hers mentioned that they are not allowed to say the name “Jesus” in their house – yikes!

    I’ve mentioned this story here before but I don’t think Pilgrim has read it – about a year ago, I felt an evil presence in our bedroom one night and began yelling “In the name of Jesus, I rebuke you – Get out, Get out!” I was alseep and freaked my husband out who threw himself over me between me and it. We turned on the lights and nothing. Now, I’ve never used the word “rebuke” in my life, but like Lynn always says “rebuke first, ask questions later” and I guess that had sunk into my psyche :)
    I would ask these “seers” to do the same – if this “mary” departs than she is not of God and the Blessed Mother’s image is being used by evil for evil – simple as that!

    • pilgrim said

      Hi Gidget, allow me to be the first from this part of the world to wish you every peace and blessing for 2010.

      Now to try and answer some of your questions so that you don’t misunderstand me.

      1. Yes my life was changed at Medjugorje, not after “seeing this mary’ as you put it. I did not and have never “seen” the Blessed Virgin Mary. Let me be quite clear about that.

      2. So this answer will also serve to answer your assumption that Mary spoke to me. That was not the case. I have explained elsewhere what happened to me, how I was made fully aware of my sinfulness, yet at the same time felt so loved by God at the same time. I can only say that this is the action of the Holy Spirit.

      3. I do not receive messages, but I know that God speaks to my heart when my heart is fully open to receiving the love he bestows. This is prayer, when hearts speaks to heart.

      4. The BVM gives speaks with the seers, and sometimes gives ‘messages’ to relate to the people. This has been happening for 28 years. Most of the messages from the BVM point towards her Son, similar to the call of a prophet pointing the way to God.

      5. Yes, the BVM would like everyone to have a personal relationship with God and she does prefer that we address our prayers directly to God. But she also has a role as intercessor and there are some who will bring the difficulties and prayers before her. She delivers these prayers to her Son. All prayers to her are presented before the Lord. Maybe it’s just a human thing, but some woman like to have the ear of another woman! There is a saying popular among Catholics: “Through Mary to Jesus”. :) And we know through Scripture that Jesus does listen to his Mother. (Luke 2 : 3)

      6. I appreciate that there are some people susceptible to hearing “voices” and mistaking them for something that they are not. We should pray for these people with these difficulties and resist the temptation to mock or ridicule them.

      7. We all experience occasions when we sense a presence of evil about us. I use the words that Jesus used to Peter: “Get thee behind me, satan!” And if the presence persists I also remind it that the victory has already been won and belongs to Jesus Christ.

      8. I mentioned in another post about the seers testing the spirits and also quoted some of the messages of the BVM which show that her words are not “of this world” but point us to the path of salvation.

      I hope this answer gives you a better understanding of my position and helps against any misunderstanding. Thank you for the opportunity to clarify. Peace.

  35. Bobby C said

    Happy New Year to all of you. I have watched this debate for a week now. Quiet frankly, it seems to be a futile exercise. While I understand your intentions may be motivated by the highest principals, your attention has been focused on this Apparition, all to the joy of whatever spirit lays behind it.
    Unfortunately, the Roman Catholic Church has taken every person they can legitimately point to as having lived a saintly life, and somehow placed them between Our Lord Jesus, and the masses. This Medjugorje Apparition is just simply one more distraction in a long line.It is Idolatry! You could read the entire Revelation of John, and have time to meditate on it’s meaning, faster than you can read the book of all the saints you can pray to for some specific need. It would also be time better spent.
    I hope you will all consider that in these last days, there will be many signs and wonders take place, in the heavens and on the Earth. so many In fact, that even the Elect would be deceived, if that were possible. We can certainly see that many people are being deceived.
    Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the Life, no one comes to the father except by me”. If anyone needs more than that, You need to pray to The Father in Jesus name, and He will give you the “peace that passes all understanding”, Not some Apparition in Medjugorje, Cairo, or Knock.
    Again I hope you all have a wonderful New Year, and remember when you see all these things taking place look up, Your Redemption draws near.

    • SANDRA said

      Bobby C , you hit the nail on the head! I agree with you, I dont think there can be anything but a agree to disagree on this one. JESUS is the only one we need.

  36. Frank said

    100!

    I couldn’t resist.

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